Garlic and brining?

If all you want to know is how to properly cold smoke some fish, just
brine it,
use sawdust (or chips, but as small a pieces as you can get), keep the
temp of
the smoking chamber _low_ (under about 70-80 degrees), and let it smoke
for at
least 24 hours - longer is better, esp. for preservation rather than
taste.


On 8-Sep-2009, wrote:

Generally hot smoking (at 150 deg. Fahr. or hotter) is
cooking for eating today and cold smoke (100 deg. F)
is for storage (a month in the fridge, a year if frozen.)
Cold smoking takes two or three times as much time.
My portable Abu smoker (size of a shoebox, burning
alcohol) cooks a fish or cheese sandwich in 20 min.
(No need to brine fish. Mixed salt and red pepper is
lightly sprinkled beforehand. The red pepper helps
you see what you are doing.) My Luhr Jensen smoker
hangs 4 to 8 whole sides (max. 16") where they are
smoked 7 hours for storage.


We smoke for preservation and of course - taste
Some is eaten right away and at least half is frozen.

There seems to be a discrepancy in the temps and advice given from 80F to
100F
When we smoke We do several fish at a time - not less than 2
My inclination is to opt for the higher temps - for at least over 6-7 hrs as
I am wary of cold smoking due to health concerns


Fred

Don Phillipson wrote:

2. Brining is prerequisite to smoking (strong brine
for cold smoke, mild brine for hot smoke). Before
other cooking methods, it seems likely to make
the food too salty.

Thank you! I would have ruined a perfectly good
pan of trout.

Why both olive oil and butter? (I prefer bacon fat to
either for pan-fried trout, but fry eggs etc. in OO
rather than butter.)

I mix extra virgin olive oil with butter to cut down
on the butter's expense and fat. If you mix it
just right, you think it is just butter (about 2
parts butter to one part OO). I use it on my fried
eggs all the time.

Thank you for the tips!
-T

Fred wrote:
On 7-Sep-2009, "Don Phillipson" wrote:

Brining is prerequisite to smoking (strong brine
for cold smoke, mild brine for hot smoke). Before

I make a nice mild brine and smoke my trout 3-6 hrs
Lemon and garlic in various forms are essentail ingredients
I will sometimes use a little soy sauce as a partial salt substitute

I have a sceret recipe for smoking including some whiskey
Its a big hit!

We also cook w olive oil -
We can try to replace the fat comtent w olive oil
but sometimes its worth it to add a little butter just for flavoring

I would like to know more anout cold smoing
Can you elaborate a bit - ?
I tried it w some sockeye salmon (lox) but then I was afraid it would be
undercooked or smoked so I smoked them as normal a for a litte less time
I would like to know more about and have more confidence in cold smokimg?

Fred

Hi Fred,

Just pan frying. Margo is allergic to smoke, so I have
to stay away from smokers.

Thank you for the tips!
-T

Giles wrote:
On Sep 7, 4:24 pm, "Fred" wrote:
On 7-Sep-2009, "Don Phillipson" wrote:

Brining is prerequisite to smoking (strong brine
for cold smoke, mild brine for hot smoke). Before
I make a nice mild brine and smoke my trout 3-6 hrs
Lemon and garlic in various forms are essentail ingredients

Brining may be a prerequisite and lemon and garlic may be essential
ingredients......to suit some palates, but none of the above is needed
for any practical reasons. While there are virtually infinite
delicious methods and ingredients and recipes for preparing trout,
none of them is necessary for any reasons other than suiting
individual tastes. Personally, I prefer smoking to all other methods
for trout.....and I like simplest best. Just trout and warm hickory
smoke for an hour or so.

g.

Thank you for the tips
-T

wrote:
On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 21:24:06 GMT, "Fred" wrote:

On 7-Sep-2009, "Don Phillipson" wrote:

Brining is prerequisite to smoking (strong brine
for cold smoke, mild brine for hot smoke). Before
I make a nice mild brine and smoke my trout 3-6 hrs
Lemon and garlic in various forms are essentail ingredients
I will sometimes use a little soy sauce as a partial salt substitute

I have a sceret recipe for smoking including some whiskey
Its a big hit!

We also cook w olive oil -
We can try to replace the fat comtent w olive oil
but sometimes its worth it to add a little butter just for flavoring

I would like to know more anout cold smoing
Can you elaborate a bit - ?
I tried it w some sockeye salmon (lox) but then I was afraid it would be
undercooked or smoked so I smoked them as normal a for a litte less time
I would like to know more about and have more confidence in cold smokimg?

Fred

Brining serves a purpose in various forms of "cooking." In cold smoking, it is
part of the preserving process as well as part of the seasoning process.
Smoking, both hot and cold, are primarily preserving processes that also happen
to taste good, at least to a lot of folks. First, keep in mind what "cooking"
is, at least as far as most people in the US consider it to be - in the case of
meat, it is basically nothing more than denaturing the protein, typically via
heat, and intended to make the food "safer" via heat. Therefore, personal
preferences aside, all you must do for safety issues is to get the food
temperature up high enough to kill any "bugs" that _might_ be present. Since
all the likely "bugs" _on_ beef that you'll kill with (reasonable) heat are
surfactants, rare cuts are no more dangerous than well-done cuts, but hamburgers
_can_ be made potentially safer by cooking the entire burger through to medium
or more.

IAC, brining/salting can serve several purposes. In the case of cold smoking,
it is part of the preservation process. In the case of, for example, modern US
pork and chicken, brining can help keep very lean meats "juicy" in cooking, esp.
if it is a relatively long cooking process - a "Boston butt" roast or a
dry-roasted chicken. Basically, it's diffusion of the moisture into the
intercellular spaces, which raises the denaturing temp of the protein, which
means less water cooks out in the process and some sources say that there is
osmosis of the water into the cells via the saline content of the solution. IME,
I've heard the diffusion is accepted and the osmosis is disputed. For my
purposes, it works, so I've not done in-depth research. If you really want to
know all about it, get a textbook on meat processing techniques - I don't mean
that in a smart-assed way, it's just a pretty complicated area that covers a
whole lot of material, and as I said, there is some disagreement, at least among
the food crowd.

If all you want to know is how to properly cold smoke some fish, just brine it,
use sawdust (or chips, but as small a pieces as you can get), keep the temp of
the smoking chamber _low_ (under about 70-80 degrees), and let it smoke for at
least 24 hours - longer is better, esp. for preservation rather than taste.

HTH,
R

I am stuck with the frying pan, but thank you for the
thoughtful tips!

-T

Don Phillipson wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
...

I would like to know more anout cold smoing
Can you elaborate a bit - ?
I tried it w some sockeye salmon (lox) but then I was afraid it would be
undercooked or smoked so I smoked them as normal a for a litte less time
I would like to know more about and have more confidence in cold smokimg?

Vendors of smokers usually explain, e.g. see
http://www.bradleysmoker.com/faqs.asp
Generally hot smoking (at 150 deg. Fahr. or hotter) is
cooking for eating today and cold smoke (100 deg. F)
is for storage (a month in the fridge, a year if frozen.)
Cold smoking takes two or three times as much time.
My portable Abu smoker (size of a shoebox, burning
alcohol) cooks a fish or cheese sandwich in 20 min.
(No need to brine fish. Mixed salt and red pepper is
lightly sprinkled beforehand. The red pepper helps
you see what you are doing.) My Luhr Jensen smoker
hangs 4 to 8 whole sides (max. 16") where they are
smoked 7 hours for storage.

Recommended brine for cold smoke:
Brown sugar 0.25 lb.
Salt 1.25 lb.; we use coarse pickling salt
Lemon Juice 85 ml. = 85 c.c. = 3 fl. oz (at 29.5 c.c. ea.)
Garlic 3 or 4 cloves well mashed
Dill weed 3 tablespoons
Oregano ample pinch
Marjoram ample pinch
Water 15 cups (@8 oz.)

Time: max. one hour per (weighed) pound of fish.
Rinse afterwards under a running faucet and dry
overnight (hanging from a bulldog clip) before
smoking for several hours.


I am stuck with the frying pan, but thank you for the
thoughtful tips! Marjoram. Hmmmm

-T

wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 11:22:26 -0700, Todd wrote:

Hi All,

A friend of mine says he loves Garlic on his trout.
I would rather not waste a pan of good trout
trying this out. Any one have an comments?

UM, OK - I like garlic, lots in/on some things, a little on others, and none on
some things. I don't know if you like garlic or in what amount you might like
it and on what. I think a little garlic on all but the mildest of fish dishes
can be good, but you might not.

I do love garlic. I think I will try it. Thank you!
Margo hates fish. My goal is to bring her around.
(This will be a lifetime endeavor.)


Also, would you bother brining them?

It would depend on the "cooking" method. With a simple and quick pan-saute in
some form of fat, brining isn't necessary nor will it help an appreciable
amount.

Yup. I should have said pan fried. I will save myself the
hassle of brining.

Thank you for the tip!

-T

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 18:03:26 GMT, "Fred" wrote:

If all you want to know is how to properly cold smoke some fish, just
brine it,
use sawdust (or chips, but as small a pieces as you can get), keep the
temp of
the smoking chamber _low_ (under about 70-80 degrees), and let it smoke
for at
least 24 hours - longer is better, esp. for preservation rather than
taste.


On 8-Sep-2009, wrote:

Generally hot smoking (at 150 deg. Fahr. or hotter) is
cooking for eating today and cold smoke (100 deg. F)
is for storage (a month in the fridge, a year if frozen.)
Cold smoking takes two or three times as much time.
My portable Abu smoker (size of a shoebox, burning
alcohol) cooks a fish or cheese sandwich in 20 min.
(No need to brine fish. Mixed salt and red pepper is
lightly sprinkled beforehand. The red pepper helps
you see what you are doing.) My Luhr Jensen smoker
hangs 4 to 8 whole sides (max. 16") where they are
smoked 7 hours for storage.


We smoke for preservation and of course - taste
Some is eaten right away and at least half is frozen.

There seems to be a discrepancy in the temps and advice given from 80F to
100F
When we smoke We do several fish at a time - not less than 2
My inclination is to opt for the higher temps - for at least over 6-7 hrs as
I am wary of cold smoking due to health concerns

What health concerns are you, um, concerned about? The entire process of
smoking fish, meat, etc. (the brining, smoking, etc.) has been in use for quite
a while, and if were not a safe and effective method, well, it would not have
been. This is not to say that you can do it any old way and have it work out,
only that if it is done properly, under sanitary conditions, and with
good-quality base ingredients, there should not be any health concerns for an
otherwise-healthy person.

As I said, the whole scientific aspect of preserving meats, fish, etc. fills up
text- and reference books, and if you are interested in the "whys" rather than
the "hows," there are a number of them out there. Again, I'm not being a
wiseass, just that minutiae of the whole process/processes is a fair amount of
information - try to imagine 50 typical posts each from Mike Connor and
Goatgang, but with real information. For me, it's like using an electrical
outlet - I generally understand the process, I understand the wiring, but
really, all I care about for the purposes of getting whatever electrical device
I'm attempting to use to work is that "plug it in, turn it on, it works..."

As to temps, keep in mind that temperature is not the only aspect of
preservation, and "preservation" in this context basically means "making this
stuff safe to eat at x point in time." For example, pancetta isn't smoked,
only cured and dried, whereas in the US, "bacon" is cured and smoked and
"country ham" is cured, smoked, dried, etc. and mold growth on the surface is
part of it. All are various methods of making pig parts safe to store and eat
at some future time. As to fish, look to things like gravlax, lox, "Scottish"
smoked salmon, etc. for a range of curing/smoking/preserving methods. Further,
keep in mind that "brine"/"brining" does not mean just "salt and water" and what
I suspect you call "cooking" is really the denaturing of protein via heat
(only). While "heat" can and does certainly kill things that could make one
sick, it is not the only way to achieve that goal - look at sashimi (_extreme_
cold in modern preparation/"preserving" - no, a typical home freezer won't do
it), ceviche (denaturing in an acidic "brine," which is why it is opaque), etc.
So, basically, there are a number of methods that can be used and/or combined to
make the food "healthy" - or really, "safe" to consume. I think you'll find
that while the taste aspect is, for many, a welcome side-benefit, the "safe to
eat" aspect is what got this or that process into long-term usage.

If all else fails, I suppose you could mix up some bleach and water in a
Gatorade bottle...

TC,
R


Fred

On 8-Sep-2009, wrote:

try to imagine 50 typical posts each from Mike Connor and
Goatgang, but with real information. For me, it's like using an
electrical
outlet - I generally understand the process, I understand the wiring, but
really, all I care about for the purposes of getting whatever electrical
device
I'm attempting to use to work is that "plug it in, turn it on, it
works..."

No particular health concerns - Just a fear of under cooking or curing but
with the wonderful analogy of the posters above I may choose food poisining
and death.

Thanks
Fred

wrote in message
...

You seem to know what you want and how to do it - I am curious, though -
have
you tried a lower cold temp for a longer time period for your "cold"
smoking?

Short answer is that my Luhr Jensen (is 30 years old and) has
no temperature control. The more recent Bradley smoker has
this (has two selectable burners for cold and hot smoke.)

The traditional way of assuring cold smoke was:
smoke chamber = anything convenient (e.g. a discarded
fridge, with holes where appropriate;
a firepit several feet distant,
a pipe from firepit to smoke chamber on the surface (or
buried to get even cooler),
a thermometer.

This requires skill in building and maintaining for several
hours the right size of fire in the firepit. Electric hotplate
smokers need no such skill. I have not seen a traditional
backyard smoker for decades. Some big BBQs advertise
that they can smoke but I never needed to test this.

(My first trial of smoking was about 1974, in a huge cardboard
carton over a hibachi. I forget how the fish was supported.
My first LJ smoker meant more and better smoking with
intinitely less trouble.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)