Some fishing, some farming

On Sep 22, 6:40*pm, Frank Reid wrote:
I am still going to kill most of it if I can.- Hide quoted text -

I mowed it and then walked around with Roundup and spot treated the
plants I could find (they make a nice, flat bullseye). *I wanted to
use my torch, but there was too much dead material out there. *It
might work after a good rain. *I just put a 20lb propane tank on my
dolly and haul it around when I need to torch something.
I really don't like thistle or burs of any kind. *My neighbor has a
real bad infestation of sand burs and shatter cane. *I've got the
cockle burs, button weed, and Canada thistle. *Its a fight, but I WILL
win.
Frank

The spot treatment could work on my test plot. Wonder if a hoe would
work. ie does this stuff typically re-emerge for the root remanant
left by spot hoeing?
Over here in Western Wa., we have to pull Scotchbroom out, roots and
all to get control. Ditto with Mongolian blackberry.
Dave

In message
,
Frank Reid writes

*What a worrying combination - Frank- plus- propane-plus torch !!!

Not that I would do this, but I've "heard" that if you turn of the
flame and point the torch down a ground squirrel hole, let it run,
then light it after a bit, you'll get a shot of flame coming out then
a really cool "thwump" that you can feel through your feet. I can say
that the old tennis ball cannons made with duct tape, soda cans and
lighter fluid have nothing on a ground squirrel den full of propane
and the ejecta had a little football helmet on for the ride.
Frank "yah can't make this stuff up" Reid

Fascinating way to hunt :-)....Smacks of Mythbusters!
--
Bill Grey

On Sep 22, 10:58*pm, JR wrote:
Giles wrote:

...........The property on which most of this activity is
taking place, (officially about 70 acres.....but topography renders it
more like 85-90 in reality) is a ****in' goldmine!

There's also some oak, hickory, black cherry, various
conifers.....um.....and some other stuff.

g.
who will happily provide more conservation details for those ROFFians
who want to know.

Please. *And history of the land, too, if you know it.

I don't know much about the precise details of the land use, but it's
fairly typical for the region. But first, a little bit of
prehistory. The coulee country of southwestern Wisconsin is dominated
by steep hills cut through by a dendritic drainage pattern. These are
very old hills, the stumps of ancient mountains composed primarily of
sandstones and limestones of ancient seabeds.....well, at least the
parts that are left. The area was spared the levelling effect of the
last continental glaciation, thus explaining the rugged terrain where
most of the rest of the state was sanded to a relatively smooth
finish.

The earliest Europeans to enter the region were French fur traders and
Jesuit missionaries who were much less interested in establishing
permanent colonial settlements than in extracting the wealth of the
land and sending it back to the motherland. Hence, they had little
effect on the land beyond denuding it of fur bearing animals and
making it nearly impossible for modern travelers to approach any damp
spot anywhere in Michigan, Wisconsin, or northern Illinois without
tripping over "Marquette" or "Joliet" something or other. Next came
the Cornish miners....the "Badgers" reponsible for the University of
Wisconsin's mascot and the sobriquet, "the badger state." They, too,
left little lasting impression on the land. Unlike the Spaniards in
other portions of North America, these stalwart and simple folk were
not lured by fables of golden cities.....it was base metals they were
after. Rather, one particular base metal which, if the alchemists had
had their way, would have been the raw material from which the Spanish
would have had riches beyond their wildest dreams.....lead. They got
their lead and left some holes in the ground. And pasties.

And then came the first of the plagues, the loggers. In their wake
they left a devastation that appalled even the relatively ecologically
insensitive citizens of the nineteenth century. By this time
photography was widespread enough that no one needed to exercise any
imagination aided by even the finest of prose to get a good sense of
the impact of the carnage. Surreal landscapes dominated by broken
stumps and discarded trash (trash by the standards of the time which
would be deemed valuable lumber today) where once there had been a
forest so vast that most people of the time seriously believed that
the resource could NEVER be exhausted. All gone in a decade or two.
Even so, there is reason to suppose that the land could have healed
itself.....in time.....if left alone.

But then came the GREAT plague.....the farmers and grazers. Even the
greediest of timber barons will leave a clear-cut landscape alone for
twenty to fifty years, depending on which species dominate. The
honest plowman and shepherd rape the land anew, every year.

That's about where this particular plot of land stood until twenty
years ago. Now things are different. Not a forest, mind you, not a
complex ecosystem that has time to work out a web of interdependencies
and myriad conflicts, but at least a plot that isn't reinvented along
a poorly thought out agenda each and every year. The oldest of the
walnuts are now about forty feet in height and twelve to fourteen
inches dbh. They would have had larger crowns by now, and greater
diameter, if they had been properly thinned as they grew.....we learn,
given enough time. The oldest of the chestnuts are a sight to
behold. A few of them are doing very very well.....for extinct
trees. The current champion stands fifty feet tall.....greatly
overshadowing the walnuts and oaks of the same age surrounding
it....and sixteen inches dbh, and this in a nineteen year old
tree.....in an orchard which the blight has found its way to.
Buttenuts are a recent addition, in response to yet another blight,
one which promises to be even more deadly than that sufferred by the
chestnuts; the butternut is in grave danger. However, certain hybrids
with Japanese walnut and (perhaps more importantly) their offspring
back-crossed with more American stock, show some promise of blight
resistance, just as is true with Castanea dentata crosses with Chinese
stock. In neither case, obviously, will the resultant survivors (if
any) be pure American stock, but the generally held opinion is that
it's better than nothing. Meanwhile, work goes on to save the pure
American gene pool of both species till resistant strains can be found
and propogated. Needless to say, opinions about the likely outcome
vary considerably.

The walnuts and hazelnuts are.....mercifully, for now.....free of
major pests that threaten their very existence. Both are producers of
highly nutritious and delicious nuts. The most serious impediment to
a bountiful harvest is squirrels. But I've found a solution to this
problem......hot lead.....the very substance that the Cornish miners
brought of of the ground of this region is being slowly but steadily
pumped back into it; I recently bought a scope for my fifty year old
Remington 550 .22. The walnut has the added attraction of what it is
really being grown for; it is one of the world's premier hardwoods,
with outstanding mechanical characteristics, including excellent
dimensional stability and shock resistence which, along with its great
beauty, make it a great favorite for gunstocks. It also excels as
veneer....and THAT is to be the ultimate fate of these trees.

g.

Giles wrote:
On Sep 22, 10:58 pm, JR wrote:
Giles wrote:

...........The property on which most of this activity is
taking place, (officially about 70 acres.....but topography renders it
more like 85-90 in reality) is a ****in' goldmine!
There's also some oak, hickory, black cherry, various
conifers.....um.....and some other stuff.
g.
who will happily provide more conservation details for those ROFFians
who want to know.
Please. And history of the land, too, if you know it.

I don't know much about the precise details of the land use, but it's
fairly typical for the region. But first, a little bit of
prehistory. The coulee country of southwestern Wisconsin is dominated
by steep hills cut through by a dendritic drainage pattern. These are
very old hills, the stumps of ancient mountains composed primarily of
sandstones and limestones of ancient seabeds.....well, at least the
parts that are left. The area was spared the levelling effect of the
last continental glaciation, thus explaining the rugged terrain where
most of the rest of the state was sanded to a relatively smooth
finish.

The earliest Europeans to enter the region were French fur traders and
Jesuit missionaries who were much less interested in establishing
permanent colonial settlements than in extracting the wealth of the
land and sending it back to the motherland. Hence, they had little
effect on the land beyond denuding it of fur bearing animals and
making it nearly impossible for modern travelers to approach any damp
spot anywhere in Michigan, Wisconsin, or northern Illinois without
tripping over "Marquette" or "Joliet" something or other. Next came
the Cornish miners....the "Badgers" reponsible for the University of
Wisconsin's mascot and the sobriquet, "the badger state." They, too,
left little lasting impression on the land. Unlike the Spaniards in
other portions of North America, these stalwart and simple folk were
not lured by fables of golden cities.....it was base metals they were
after. Rather, one particular base metal which, if the alchemists had
had their way, would have been the raw material from which the Spanish
would have had riches beyond their wildest dreams.....lead. They got
their lead and left some holes in the ground. And pasties.

And then came the first of the plagues, the loggers. In their wake
they left a devastation that appalled even the relatively ecologically
insensitive citizens of the nineteenth century. By this time
photography was widespread enough that no one needed to exercise any
imagination aided by even the finest of prose to get a good sense of
the impact of the carnage. Surreal landscapes dominated by broken
stumps and discarded trash (trash by the standards of the time which
would be deemed valuable lumber today) where once there had been a
forest so vast that most people of the time seriously believed that
the resource could NEVER be exhausted. All gone in a decade or two.
Even so, there is reason to suppose that the land could have healed
itself.....in time.....if left alone.

But then came the GREAT plague.....the farmers and grazers. Even the
greediest of timber barons will leave a clear-cut landscape alone for
twenty to fifty years, depending on which species dominate. The
honest plowman and shepherd rape the land anew, every year.

That's about where this particular plot of land stood until twenty
years ago. Now things are different. Not a forest, mind you, not a
complex ecosystem that has time to work out a web of interdependencies
and myriad conflicts, but at least a plot that isn't reinvented along
a poorly thought out agenda each and every year. The oldest of the
walnuts are now about forty feet in height and twelve to fourteen
inches dbh. They would have had larger crowns by now, and greater
diameter, if they had been properly thinned as they grew.....we learn,
given enough time. The oldest of the chestnuts are a sight to
behold. A few of them are doing very very well.....for extinct
trees. The current champion stands fifty feet tall.....greatly
overshadowing the walnuts and oaks of the same age surrounding
it....and sixteen inches dbh, and this in a nineteen year old
tree.....in an orchard which the blight has found its way to.
Buttenuts are a recent addition, in response to yet another blight,
one which promises to be even more deadly than that sufferred by the
chestnuts; the butternut is in grave danger. However, certain hybrids
with Japanese walnut and (perhaps more importantly) their offspring
back-crossed with more American stock, show some promise of blight
resistance, just as is true with Castanea dentata crosses with Chinese
stock. In neither case, obviously, will the resultant survivors (if
any) be pure American stock, but the generally held opinion is that
it's better than nothing. Meanwhile, work goes on to save the pure
American gene pool of both species till resistant strains can be found
and propogated. Needless to say, opinions about the likely outcome
vary considerably.

The walnuts and hazelnuts are.....mercifully, for now.....free of
major pests that threaten their very existence. Both are producers of
highly nutritious and delicious nuts. The most serious impediment to
a bountiful harvest is squirrels. But I've found a solution to this
problem......hot lead.....the very substance that the Cornish miners
brought of of the ground of this region is being slowly but steadily
pumped back into it; I recently bought a scope for my fifty year old
Remington 550 .22. The walnut has the added attraction of what it is
really being grown for; it is one of the world's premier hardwoods,
with outstanding mechanical characteristics, including excellent
dimensional stability and shock resistence which, along with its great
beauty, make it a great favorite for gunstocks. It also excels as
veneer....and THAT is to be the ultimate fate of these trees.

g.

story in today's news and observer...thought you might be interested.
it made me think of our communication some time ago about the chestnuts
you discovered up there...apparently out of the normal range i've read
about. i was going to send to you before i read your note, but this
provides the opportunity. if restored, the entire wildlife picture in
the nc mountains could revitalize...

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/113994.html

jeff

On Sep 23, 7:07*pm, Giles wrote:
On Sep 22, 10:58*pm, JR wrote:

Giles wrote:

...........The property on which most of this activity is
taking place, (officially about 70 acres.....but topography renders it
more like 85-90 in reality) is a ****in' goldmine!

There's also some oak, hickory, black cherry, various
conifers.....um.....and some other stuff.

g.
who will happily provide more conservation details for those ROFFians
who want to know.

Please. *And history of the land, too, if you know it.

I don't know much about the precise details of the land use, but it's
fairly typical for the region. *But first, a little bit of
prehistory. *The coulee country of southwestern Wisconsin is dominated
by steep hills cut through by a dendritic drainage pattern. *These are
very old hills, the stumps of ancient mountains composed primarily of
sandstones and limestones of ancient seabeds.....well, at least the
parts that are left. *The area was spared the levelling effect of the
last continental glaciation, thus explaining the rugged terrain where
most of the rest of the state was sanded to a relatively smooth
finish.

The earliest Europeans to enter the region were French fur traders and
Jesuit missionaries who were much less interested in establishing
permanent colonial settlements than in extracting the wealth of the
land and sending it back to the motherland. *Hence, they had little
effect on the land beyond denuding it of fur bearing animals and
making it nearly impossible for modern travelers to approach any damp
spot anywhere in Michigan, Wisconsin, or northern Illinois without
tripping over "Marquette" or "Joliet" something or other. *Next came
the Cornish miners....the "Badgers" reponsible for the University of
Wisconsin's mascot and the sobriquet, "the badger state." *They, too,
left little lasting impression on the land. *Unlike the Spaniards in
other portions of North America, these stalwart and simple folk were
not lured by fables of golden cities.....it was base metals they were
after. *Rather, one particular base metal which, if the alchemists had
had their way, would have been the raw material from which the Spanish
would have had riches beyond their wildest dreams.....lead. *They got
their lead and left some holes in the ground. *And pasties.

And then came the first of the plagues, the loggers. *In their wake
they left a devastation that appalled even the relatively ecologically
insensitive citizens of the nineteenth century. *By this time
photography was widespread enough that no one needed to exercise any
imagination aided by even the finest of prose to get a good sense of
the impact of the carnage. *Surreal landscapes dominated by broken
stumps and discarded trash (trash by the standards of the time which
would be deemed valuable lumber today) where once there had been a
forest so vast that most people of the time seriously believed that
the resource could NEVER be exhausted. *All gone in a decade or two.
Even so, there is reason to suppose that the land could have healed
itself.....in time.....if left alone.

But then came the GREAT plague.....the farmers and grazers. *Even the
greediest of timber barons will leave a clear-cut landscape alone for
twenty to fifty years, depending on which species dominate. *The
honest plowman and shepherd rape the land anew, every year.

That's about where this particular plot of land stood until twenty
years ago. *Now things are different. *Not a forest, mind you, not a
complex ecosystem that has time to work out a web of interdependencies
and myriad conflicts, but at least a plot that isn't reinvented along
a poorly thought out agenda each and every year. *The oldest of the
walnuts are now about forty feet in height and twelve to fourteen
inches dbh. *They would have had larger crowns by now, and greater
diameter, if they had been properly thinned as they grew.....we learn,
given enough time. *The oldest of the chestnuts are a sight to
behold. *A few of them are doing very very well.....for extinct
trees. *The current champion stands fifty feet tall.....greatly
overshadowing the walnuts and oaks of the same age surrounding
it....and sixteen inches dbh, and this in a nineteen year old
tree.....in an orchard which the blight has found its way to.
Buttenuts are a recent addition, in response to yet another blight,
one which promises to be even more deadly than that sufferred by the
chestnuts; the butternut is in grave danger. *However, certain hybrids
with Japanese walnut and (perhaps more importantly) their offspring
back-crossed with more American stock, show some promise of blight
resistance, just as is true with Castanea dentata crosses with Chinese
stock. *In neither case, obviously, will the resultant survivors (if
any) be pure American stock, but the generally held opinion is that
it's better than nothing. *Meanwhile, work goes on to save the pure
American gene pool of both species till resistant strains can be found
and propogated. *Needless to say, opinions about the likely outcome
vary considerably.

The walnuts and hazelnuts are.....mercifully, for now.....free of
major pests that threaten their very existence. *Both are producers of
highly nutritious and delicious nuts. *The most serious impediment to
a bountiful harvest is squirrels. *But I've found a solution to this
problem......hot lead.....the very substance that the Cornish miners
brought of of the ground of this region is being slowly but steadily
pumped back into it; I recently bought a scope for my fifty year old
Remington 550 .22. *The walnut has the added attraction of what it is
really being grown for; it is one of the world's premier hardwoods,
with outstanding mechanical characteristics, including excellent
dimensional stability and shock resistence which, along with its great
beauty, make it a great favorite for gunstocks. *It also excels as
veneer....and THAT is to be the ultimate fate of these trees.

g.

Thanx. I assume you've done some tree planting on this property; what
has worked best in keeping the critters from killing your hardwood
saplings? Between the rodents and the deer, for the ponderosa Im
facing having to go larger sizes, plastic net a foot or so up the stem
and then a wire cage. That really limits the number I can do each
year. Ideas?

Dave

On Sep 24, 8:02*am, jeff wrote:


story in today's news and observer...thought you might be interested.
it made me think of our communication some time ago about the chestnuts
you discovered up there...apparently out of the normal range i've read
about. *i was going to send to you before i read your note, but this
provides the opportunity. *if restored, the entire wildlife picture in
the nc mountains could revitalize...

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/113994.html

The American Chestnut Foundation has been in the forefront of efforts
to save the tree for a long time. It's interesting to see that they
are betting on modern genetic technology these days; for a long time
they were staunch advocates of hypovirulence....infecting the
offending fungus with a pathogen of its own, a virus. The idea looked
promising for a time but with 30 or more strains of the fungus around,
it didn't pan out as expected. Hasn't been entirely discarded though,
or, not last I heard anyway. Meanwhile, others are banking on the
(admittedly miraculous) appearance of a resistant native. This
strategy depends at least in part on maintaining a diverse genetic
stock. This, in turn, depends at least in part ( a very large part)
on isolation. Thus, there are a great many more native chestnuts out
there than ANYONE knows about.....a lot of people aren't talking, and
they have my complete sympathy....and cooperation, insofar as it is
mine to give. I will say only that the article is somewhat in error
in the implication that the blight inevitably strikes all trees ten
years of age or older. I know of, and have personally seen, 54 year
old specimens, easily accessible to the general public (as well as to
the scientists who are justifiably suspected of having infected many a
formerly blight free stand merely by showing up in their spore laden
clothing and boots) and visited by tens of thousands of people every
year.....albeit only a minuscule percentage of them have any idea of
what they are seeing and its import.

This story, like most that are worth telling or hearing, gets even
more complicated. Like any other human venture, efforts to save the
chestnut are endlessly controversial for a host of reasons, not least
of which is the fact that a lot of glory (and, in these meticulously
patented days, a LOT of bucks) is riding on the outcome for the
winners. There are many camps. Among the most obvious (without
naming names) are those that jealousy (if not necessarily effectively)
guard their own substantial interests, and those profligate fools who
would disseminate whatever they can get their unwashed little hands
on.

You want drama? You want intrigue? You want smiling faces hiding the
evil that lurks within?

g.
it's about the trees......uh huh.

p.s. those 54 year old natives are prolific nut producers.....every
year. one of the features that made.....no, still makes.....Castanea
dentata an extraordinary tree. anyone familiar with commercially
important fruit producing trees will understand why.

p.p.s. thanks for the heads up, jeff.

On Sep 24, 1:05*pm, DaveS wrote:

Thanx.

You're welxome.

I assume you've done some tree planting on this property; what
has worked best in keeping the critters from killing your hardwood
saplings? Between the rodents and the deer, for the ponderosa Im
facing having to go larger sizes, plastic net a foot or so up the stem
and then a wire cage. That really limits the number I can do each
year. Ideas?

Pratically speaking, there are exactly two effective methods for
dealing with deer: 1. shoot them on sight, 2. fencing, a minimum of
8 ft. high. In other words, an 8 ft. (there is no practical maximum
height outside the realm of theoretical engineering.....but why go
into all that esoteric ****, anyway.....right?) fence is about it. I
mean, shooting WORKS.....but the neighbors and the DNR get all testy
and ****, ainna? Rodents are another matter. Aside from squirrels
(which have been dealt with elsewhere.....or are being dealt with,
anyway) bio- or helio- or oxy-degradable cones, about eighteen inches
tall and set flush with the ground.....with no discernable
gaps.....have worked very well. Actually, they really don't have to
be degradable at all. That's just a nice feature if your too old and
decrepit or lazy to go out and retrieve them every few years.

The most recent planting, "the butternut orchard" (which, inevitably,
also contains some chestnut hybrids and, not so inevitably, also a
goodly number of volunteer hazels) comprises about 10 acres and is
surrounded by a fence of 1 inch mesh cheap plastic **** of some
sort......deer don't know their own strength. The squirrels leave
this pretty much alone because there is, thus far, nothing much in
there to interest them. Oh, there are a few butternuts (grafting is
cool.....you got a 1 year old tree that thinks it's five or nine and
thus puts out nuts on branches 12 to 15 inches above ground level),
but the whole orchard is surrounded by much older plantings, as well
as "wild forest" that hasn't been touched.....yet. Plenty of
distractions for tree rats.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, perhaps, the greatest vertebrate pest at
this stage of the game is.....moles. They are meat eaters, if memory
serves, but their incessant tunneling in pursuit of worms and other
icky fare is highly disruptive to juvenile root systems. They kill a
lot of seedlings and whips. Not much to be done about it, as far as I
know, except to stomp on the tunnels wherever and whenever found, and
hope there's a mole head somewhere under the heel.

The bottom line is that you learn to live with, or you die with, your
limitations.

g.
frost, now, THAT's a whole 'nother problem.

On Sep 24, 8:04*pm, Giles wrote:
On Sep 24, 1:05*pm, DaveS wrote:

Thanx.

You're welxome.

I assume you've done some tree planting on this property; what
has worked best in keeping the critters from killing your hardwood
saplings? Between the rodents and the deer, for the ponderosa Im
facing having to go larger sizes, plastic net a foot or so up the stem
and then a wire cage. That really limits the number I can do each
year. Ideas?

Pratically speaking, there are exactly two effective methods for
dealing with deer: 1. *shoot them on sight, 2. *fencing, a minimum of
8 ft. high. *In other words, an 8 ft. (there is no practical maximum
height outside the realm of theoretical engineering.....but why go
into all that esoteric ****, anyway.....right?) *fence is about it. *I
mean, shooting WORKS.....but the neighbors and the DNR get all testy
and ****, ainna? *Rodents are another matter. *Aside from squirrels
(which have been dealt with elsewhere.....or are being dealt with,
anyway) bio- or helio- or oxy-degradable cones, about eighteen inches
tall and set flush with the ground.....with no discernable
gaps.....have worked very well. *Actually, they really don't have to
be degradable at all. *That's just a nice feature if your too old and
decrepit or lazy to go out and retrieve them every few years.

The most recent planting, "the butternut orchard" (which, inevitably,
also contains some chestnut hybrids and, not so inevitably, also a
goodly number of volunteer hazels) comprises about 10 acres and is
surrounded by a fence of 1 inch mesh cheap plastic **** of some
sort......deer don't know their own strength. *The squirrels leave
this pretty much alone because there is, thus far, nothing much in
there to interest them. *Oh, there are a few butternuts (grafting is
cool.....you got a 1 year old tree that thinks it's five or nine and
thus puts out nuts on branches 12 to 15 inches above ground level),
but the whole orchard is surrounded by much older plantings, as well
as "wild forest" that hasn't been touched.....yet. *Plenty of
distractions for tree rats.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, perhaps, the greatest vertebrate pest at
this stage of the game is.....moles. *They are meat eaters, if memory
serves, but their incessant tunneling in pursuit of worms and other
icky fare is highly disruptive to juvenile root systems. *They kill a
lot of seedlings and whips. *Not much to be done about it, as far as I
know, except to stomp on the tunnels wherever and whenever found, and
hope there's a mole head somewhere under the heel.

The bottom line is that you learn to live with, or you die with, your
limitations.

g.
frost, now, THAT's a whole 'nother problem.

On the Fencing thing. . . .

On my Western Wa apple trees I have to install a stout cage around
each tree, and prune off all lower branches until the trees are tall
enough so the deer have to rear up to reach the tender new growth on
the branches. When i don't do this, the deer manage the trees for
brouse. I use welded wire about 6', tied to a driven metal fence post.
The bucks will also kill new trees by honing their horns on the stems
like an old fashioned razor stroup. *******s.

For gardens or diverting deer travel patterns, the most effective
fence Ive found is a 6' high, double fence line, about 5 to 8 foot
apart. The deer don't seem to want to jump into a confined space. This
also seems to apply to SOs rose garden, which is long and narrow with
welded stock panels used as fence. They brouse the fence line but
won't jump in.

Never had any luck with cayenne, coyote or cougar ****, etc.

Dave

On 25-Sep-2009, DaveS wrote:

Never had any luck with cayenne, coyote or cougar ****, etc.

Dave

We have had luck w fences (of course) and pepper mixed w vinegar around our
trees, shrubs, garden , flowers and other plants we do not want eaten
In the evening (we have to keep our standard poodle in as she chases deer)
there are about 100-200 deer in our fields.
Its bow season and rifle soon but we allow NO hunting on our property

Fred

On Sep 25, 12:27*pm, DaveS wrote:


On the Fencing thing. . . .

On my Western Wa apple trees I have to install a stout cage around
each tree, and prune off all lower branches until the trees are tall
enough so the deer have to rear up to reach the tender new growth on
the branches. When i don't do this, the deer manage the trees for
brouse. I use welded wire about 6', tied to a driven metal fence post.

Whether to cage individual trees or fence the whole orchard is a
numbers game. If you've got half a dozen trees, cage them. If you
you've got twenty acres of dense planting, fence the whole thing.

The bucks will also kill new trees by honing their horns on the stems
like an old fashioned razor stroup. *******s.

I've talked to someone recently who insists that for some reason the
bucks prefer butternut over all others. He theorizes that something
in the bark of these trees provides the deer with relief from
bleeding, itching, or who knows what. I remain skeptical. If they do
indeed prefer butternut to other trees, I'm inclined to think that
maybe they think it smells good or something. After all, what do the
deer do for styptics in areas where no butternut grows (which is
increasingly becoming just about everywhere)?

For gardens or diverting deer travel patterns, the most effective
fence Ive found is a 6' high, double fence line, about 5 to 8 foot
apart. The deer don't seem to want to jump into a confined space.

Make it couple of feet higher and they won't jump it.....even without
the inner layer. Cheaper, space saving, and just as effective.

This
also seems to apply to SOs rose garden, which is long and narrow with
welded stock panels used as fence. They brouse the fence line but
won't jump in.

The confined space is undoubtedly a factor, but so is food
preference. Give them something they like better than roses on the
outside and they've got no good reason to come inside.

Never had any luck with cayenne, coyote or cougar ****, etc.

I very much doubt that coyotes present enough of a threat to deer to
act as a deterent. They coexist in significant numbers around here
and pretty much everywhere else I've been. The cougar **** should be
very effective......if fresh. Which is to say that a resident cougar
would keep the deer away.....but they're going to catch on to stale,
bottled **** pretty quickly. I have no idea of what deer think of
cayenne, but I'm pretty sure there isn't enough of it in the world to
make it cheap enough to keep everything on a large plot of land
effectively dosed. Besides, fencing works.....and you don't have to
rebuild after every rainfall or breeze.

giles