AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

On 10-Oct-2009, David LaCourse wrote:

I hope that Obama can live up to it.

Dave

I stick by this because the way the world and planet is headed is not
promising for my grandchildren
who are the red headed apples of my eyes

Obama - I thought represented a nice chamge
Whether it will happen or not depends on many factors most out of our
control (we differ here)

so not to belabor any points .. We have our grandcildren, we have our
animals & foul
We have water and fish
and deer all around if necessary

....and the means to protect what we have...
I think that is the best that I can do for my family

The way we were headed was Cheney's war in Iran
And pls note that wars are for money$$$$$ greed and usually little else

Ya kniow *I fish to forget this ****!
I play musuic becaues it takes me away also

Sincerely (always to Dave)
Fred

On Oct 10, 9:49*pm, "Fred" wrote:
On 10-Oct-2009, David LaCourse wrote:

*I hope that Obama can live up to it.

Dave

I stick by this because the way the world and planet is headed is not
promising for my grandchildren
who are the red headed apples of my eyes

Obama - I thought represented a nice chamge
Whether it will happen or not depends on many factors most out of our
control (we differ here)

so not to belabor any points .. We have our grandcildren, we have our
animals & foul
We have water and fish
and deer all around if necessary

...and the means to protect what we have...
I think that is the best that I can do for my family

You should visit Earth sometime.

The way we were headed was Cheney's war in Iran
And pls note that wars are for money$$$$$ greed and usually little else

Ya kniow *I fish to forget this ****!

And a fine job you are doing of it!

I play musuic becaues it takes me away also

Oh yeah.

Sincerely (always to Dave)

Twit.

g.

On 2009-10-10 22:49:55 -0400, "Fred" said:


On 10-Oct-2009, David LaCourse wrote:

I hope that Obama can live up to it.

Dave

I stick by this because the way the world and planet is headed is not
promising for my grandchildren
who are the red headed apples of my eyes

Obama - I thought represented a nice chamge
Whether it will happen or not depends on many factors most out of our
control (we differ here)

so not to belabor any points .. We have our grandcildren, we have our
animals & foul
We have water and fish
and deer all around if necessary

...and the means to protect what we have...
I think that is the best that I can do for my family

The way we were headed was Cheney's war in Iran
And pls note that wars are for money$$$$$ greed and usually little else

Ya kniow *I fish to forget this ****!
I play musuic becaues it takes me away also

Sincerely (always to Dave)
Fred

Nice feelings, Fred, but Obama STILL hasn't done anything, and
everything pre-Obama is still in place - Gitmo, Iraq, Afghanistan (we
are now losing that fight), housing mess, banking mess, a deficit that
is higher than anyone ever thought it could be. Someone is making a
helluva lot of money, and it ain't Cheney.

Go fishing, Fred. I am - NC this morning.

Dave

On Oct 10, 6:56*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-10-10 19:21:09 -0400, "Fred" said:

I concur
Especiall w the last point about the prize
I hope that Obama can live up to it.

Fred, you don't live up to the Nobel Prize. *It is given for things you
have already done. *Do you think they would give the Science Prize to
my wife if she said she could make light travel faster? *That would be
one hell of a discovery. *The same holds true for the Peace Prize. *My
wife can't make light travel faster than God meant it to travel, and
Obama has done nothing to bring peace to the world.

Hm.....not stupid. Who are you?

Reagan did more.

Never mind.

Idiot.

g.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:51:36 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:



for more than a year prior to feb 2009, obama gave clear indications of
his positions, philosophies, and character (for those willing to read
and listen)...enough that my wife and i independent of one another took
notice, hoped he would announce as a candidate, and then began our
active support. something we'd not done with any heartfelt enthusiasm
since our 20s. i doubt we were the only ones affected in this way.

No, you weren't. Unfortunately, he didn't give clear indications of much of
anything (good or bad). Which, at least for me, makes the utter polarization
surrounding him all the more sad and strange. Neither you, as a fairly
well-spoken, general-purpose supporter, or me, as a somewhat skeptical, "devil's
advocate," kinda guy (or even Forty, as a paradoxically wild-eyed-but-blind,
frothing-at-the-mouth rabid fan and Louie, as a drooling right-wing Rush
Glenbeck-listening loony) can really support, with substantive and objective
proof, a strong case for OR against.

he changed the direction of this country (and the perceptions of this
country) long before january 20, 2009.

No, he really hasn't. But from the other side, um...no, he really hasn't...but
see below...

i just don't understand the schadenfreude for obama that some have...

I don't either - thus far, he really hasn't done or accomplished much of
anything - from any standpoint. A ban on guns? Nope. A rise in taxes? Nope.
Gay atheist Muslim dope-smoking liberal hippie commies encouraging grade-school
kids to use condoms for unnatural sex in Heartland, Kansas? Nope. The Abortion
Czar putting PETA supporters at every mall with a coathanger? Not even close.
"Christmas (or Hanukkah) - no, Kwanzaa (or Ramadan) - yes." Hardly. Are Bush,
Cheney, and the CIA being investigated? Nop...er, ye...er, nop...er, ye....er,
nop...well, maybe...or not...

Thus far, about all he has REALLY accomplished is to REALLY divide those he is
supposed to be President of....yeah, yeah, yeah, I know - it's ALL the fault of
the other side...(and in all seriousness, most of the division isn't his
"fault," nor did he "cause" all of it, but OTOH, neither he nor his
administration has done much of anything to ease it, either, and they have
encouraged some of it)

IAC, while I haven't polled them, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the
great majority of the world don't really know or care about Obama or any other
POTUS, anymore than most of those in the US know or really care about how
Indians, Chinese, Portuguese, or those any other country feel or are governed

unless they simply acknowledge being a rascist.

Hmmm...what about when certain sectors (and I mean sectors of races, not entire
races) of the various... um.... non-(half)white people blamed _everything_ on
white people...? Was that not "racist?" As an aside, is a rascist anything
like a facist?

i'll wager though that of all the nobel recipients, he
is easily the most recognizable and best-known in the world.

Except, apparently, in Poland...

And your statement above is a pretty good indication of what I feel is the whole
problem - "Americancentricism." And note that I did not write "Americentric" or
similar.

my hope is for people, especially those in other countries, to believe
genuinely that our president promotes and desires peaceful solutions. we
are too often a violent short-sighted society, rightly perceived as
such, with petty purposes and ideas.

Um, who exactly is "we"...?

i like having a president who
doesn't fit that mold, and who garners the admiration and respect of
other world leaders...not to mention the nobel committee.

What makes you think he is "admired and respected" by "world leaders?"

i'm incredibly proud of obama...he's doing a terrific job as president
under the worst of circumstances.

OK. Please give examples of why you feel he is doing a terrific job.

though the bewilderingly hostile chasm and wasteland between repubs and
dems, conservatives and liberals, (using those labels in the most
dogmatic sense) keeps us a divided nation, i am seeing more folks (like
paul...and even tim g) in recent months who are willing to express
their dissatisfaction with the way things have been and who are seeking
ways to bridge the divide. it's encouraging... as is a president
awarded the nobel peace prize.

I'm curious - when Obama said he didn't deserve it, did you feel that he was
being honest, falsely modest, disingenuous, or ??? And if you feel he was being
honest, why do you disagree with him? IOW, why do you feel that he does deserve
it when he honestly disagrees with you?


jeff

TC,
R

wrote:

he changed the direction of this country (and the perceptions of this
country) long before january 20, 2009.

No, he really hasn't. But from the other side, um...no, he really hasn't...but
see below...

well...yes, he really has. he began a movement...a sea-change in ideas
and ideals and politics. now, diplomacy is different. UN policy and talk
is decidedly different. foreign relations are different. appreciation
of civil rights, individual liberties, constitutional rights are
different. torture policies are different. integrity of
decision-making is different. honest statements to the
public...different. economic push, different. regard for the balance of
power between branches of govt...different. appointment of federal
judges...way, way different (and better...g) talking about the facts
instead of creating facts to talk about...huge difference. he's restored
pride to a substantial segment of the population that felt lost, left
out, used, taken for granted, and burdened. he can speak intelligently,
powerfully...inspiring folks...way different. there is a sense of
integrity, honor, and truth. there is a recognition of the value of
other cultures and different perspectives. his efforts for a nuclear
weapon-free world. (or nukular) he's black. just look at how he was
received here and in other countries in 2008... why do you think that
happened?

i just don't understand the schadenfreude for obama that some have...

I don't either - thus far, he really hasn't done or accomplished much of
anything - from any standpoint. A ban on guns? Nope. A rise in taxes? Nope.
Gay atheist Muslim dope-smoking liberal hippie commies encouraging grade-school
kids to use condoms for unnatural sex in Heartland, Kansas? Nope. The Abortion
Czar putting PETA supporters at every mall with a coathanger? Not even close.
"Christmas (or Hanukkah) - no, Kwanzaa (or Ramadan) - yes." Hardly. Are Bush,
Cheney, and the CIA being investigated? Nop...er, ye...er, nop...er, ye....er,
nop...well, maybe...or not...

folks want him to fail, want to find fault. go out of their way to
condemn him. ...and, of course, it's all his fault. are you saying he's
not tried in any meaningful, substantive, and honest way to implement or
initiate important change? what do you think he should have done, or
done differently? pick something...and talk about his efforts
objectively as the executive branch...


Thus far, about all he has REALLY accomplished is to REALLY divide those he is
supposed to be President of....yeah, yeah, yeah, I know - it's ALL the fault of
the other side...(and in all seriousness, most of the division isn't his
"fault," nor did he "cause" all of it, but OTOH, neither he nor his
administration has done much of anything to ease it, either, and they have
encouraged some of it)

tell me...what has he done to cause the divide...other than be black? my
take is he's bent over backwards to try to find consensus, to encourage
discussion and compromise. ken and others may be right...perhaps he
should just say screw the repubs and push the agenda. i don't think so.
i like his approach.


IAC, while I haven't polled them, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the
great majority of the world don't really know or care about Obama or any other
POTUS, anymore than most of those in the US know or really care about how
Indians, Chinese, Portuguese, or those any other country feel or are governed


i haven't polled them either...but i'll go out on the same limb and say
more people in the world can tell you who obama is than can tell you who
herta muller is (and probably more than can identify william faulkner).
think back on his speech in germany...his visits to other
countries...the muslim world reaction... i think you understate the
general view of world leaders ... russia, china, us, uk, israel, middle
east, etc., and their political systems and populaces.

unless they simply acknowledge being a rascist.

Hmmm...what about when certain sectors (and I mean sectors of races, not entire
races) of the various... um.... non-(half)white people blamed _everything_ on
white people...? Was that not "racist?" As an aside, is a rascist anything
like a facist?

yeah, yeah...racist... and i don't think racists exist only in a
single color or race. still, i accept there is an historical and real
basis for the black hatred of whites in the u.s. - a basis or reason for
the emotion that i can't find an equal underpinning for with the white
racists...maybe you can explain it?


i'll wager though that of all the nobel recipients, he
is easily the most recognizable and best-known in the world.

Except, apparently, in Poland...

too obscure for me...but see above...


And your statement above is a pretty good indication of what I feel is the whole
problem - "Americancentricism." And note that I did not write "Americentric" or
similar.

don't get your meaning...but that's nothing new. please explain.

my hope is for people, especially those in other countries, to believe
genuinely that our president promotes and desires peaceful solutions. we
are too often a violent short-sighted society, rightly perceived as
such, with petty purposes and ideas.


Um, who exactly is "we"...?


we = u.s. public/society/culture

i like having a president who
doesn't fit that mold, and who garners the admiration and respect of
other world leaders...not to mention the nobel committee.

What makes you think he is "admired and respected" by "world leaders?"

i think it based on my reading... and based on newscasts i've seen on
teevee.


i'm incredibly proud of obama...he's doing a terrific job as president
under the worst of circumstances.

OK. Please give examples of why you feel he is doing a terrific job.

see above... i trust you understand "worst of circumstances."

though the bewilderingly hostile chasm and wasteland between repubs and
dems, conservatives and liberals, (using those labels in the most
dogmatic sense) keeps us a divided nation, i am seeing more folks (like
paul...and even tim g) in recent months who are willing to express
their dissatisfaction with the way things have been and who are seeking
ways to bridge the divide. it's encouraging... as is a president
awarded the nobel peace prize.

I'm curious - when Obama said he didn't deserve it, did you feel that he was
being honest, falsely modest, disingenuous, or ??? And if you feel he was being
honest, why do you disagree with him? IOW, why do you feel that he does deserve
it when he honestly disagrees with you?


i thought he was being genuine...a real and humble and honest human
being...who recognized the power of his symbol and his efforts, that
were being encouraged. i don't think i chimed in saying he did or did
not deserve it...the nobel committee, carrying out the will of alfred
nobel, decided he deserved it. the committee is comprised of
non-americancentrists, don't you agree? they've been in the business of
making selections since early 1900s. it's their job and their
choice...not yours or mine. we can debate our view of the merit of the
selection...but it ain't debatable that i'm proud of it and encouraged
by it.

i admit i was surprised. i believe i said i was proud and encouraged
that our president received the prize.

clearly, to me and based on the statements contained in nobel's will,
the prize is intended to recognize and encourage potential and the
possible effects of the selection. i think obama was perceived as
bringing a better sense of reason and balance to a precarious and
dangerous set of world circumstances.

jose merida (yeah, about as well known as jeff miller) said he thought
the prize to obama also "recognized the american people who dared to
vote for a change of the u.s. role in the world." perception can become
reality... "give peace a chance"


jeff

On 2009-10-11 20:54:38 -0400, jeff said:


"give peace a chance"

Hmmmmm. We've had 9 months of "give" so far, and peace in the near
future seems to be more rare than a snowball in hell. He has NOT
closed Gitmo. Why? Because it IS the logical place to keep captured
combatants. We are still in Iraq and now the enemy seems emboldened to
continue that war. We are losing in Afghanistan and it does not look
like he is going to take his generals advice. Even some of his
staunchest allies have told him to act quickly with getting those 40k
troops in country. But he seems indecisive, unsure. He can certainly
talk a good show, but so far in 9 months, having both Houses with a
decidedly Dem advantage, he has done little.

It seems to me (and to many of my friends, both Dem and Repub) that
Pelosi and Reid are running the show. THEY seem more powerful than he.

Also, he has not addressed the unrest in this country. The 300,000
people that marched on DC recently was unaswered by him and most of the
press. Why is that? If he is THEIR president, he has to answer.
Those people were voting Americans, many whom had voted for him, and
many others who were Dems. A protest of that size should not go
unnoticed.

The Nobel Prize is a political one and you should know that, Jeff.
Yassar Arafat a Nobel winner? Gimme a break. He was one of the
biggest non-peace keepers in the world. Reagan opened the Iron
Curtain, saw the tearing down of the Berlin Wall, and the demise of the
Soviet Union and he didn't win it? Politics and agenda. The Peace
Prize is a farce.

I am happy that you are proud of him. I wish I could be. But, he must
DO something first, not give me a bunch of promises and words. He's
still stumping the hustings, campaigning. Someone has to tell him that
the "I inherited this" is over and that he has to do something instead
of bitch and moan like Fortenberry.

In other news: Joanne and I have just about settled on a beautiful
home on a ridge in North Georgia with an unbelievable view from south
to north overlooking several smaller ridges and two or three mountain
ranges. They just seem to keep on coming as you look west. The sunset
is beautiful. The home is in a gated community surrounded by the
Chattahoochee Nat'l Forest. Dukes Creek is around the corner, with
Fontana Lake about an hour and a half away. We'll keep the Yankee home
and use (hopefully) this one in the winter.

Dave

On Oct 11, 9:07*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-10-11 20:54:38 -0400, jeff said:

"give peace a chance"

Hmmmmm. *We've had 9 months of "give" so far, and peace in the near
future seems to be more rare than a snowball in hell. *He has NOT
closed Gitmo. *Why? *Because it IS the logical place to keep captured
combatants. *We are still in Iraq and now the enemy seems emboldened to
continue that war. *We are losing in Afghanistan and it does not look
like he is going to take his generals advice. *Even some of his
staunchest allies have told him to act quickly with getting those 40k
troops in country. *But he seems indecisive, unsure. *He can certainly
talk a good show, but so far in 9 months, *having both Houses with a
decidedly Dem advantage, he has done little.

It seems to me (and to many of my friends, both Dem and Repub) that
Pelosi and Reid are running the show. *THEY seem more powerful than he.

Also, he has not addressed the unrest in this country. *The 300,000
people that marched on DC recently was unaswered by him and most of the
press. *Why is that? *If he is THEIR president, he has to answer. *
Those people were voting Americans, many whom had voted for him, and
many others who were Dems. *A protest of that size should not go
unnoticed.

The Nobel Prize is a political one and you should know that, Jeff. *
Yassar Arafat a Nobel winner? *Gimme a break. *He was one of the
biggest non-peace keepers in the world. *Reagan opened the Iron
Curtain, saw the tearing down of the Berlin Wall, and the demise of the
Soviet Union and he didn't win it? *Politics and agenda. *The Peace
Prize is a farce.

I am happy that you are proud of him. *I wish I could be. *But, he must
DO something first, not give me a bunch of promises and words. *He's
still stumping the hustings, campaigning. *Someone has to tell him that
the "I inherited this" is over and that he has to do something instead
of bitch and moan like Fortenberry.

In other news: *Joanne and I have just about settled on a beautiful
home on a ridge in North Georgia with an unbelievable view from south
to north overlooking several smaller ridges and two or three mountain
ranges. *They just seem to keep on coming as you look west. *The sunset
is beautiful. *The home is in a gated community surrounded by the
Chattahoochee Nat'l Forest. *Dukes Creek is around the corner, with
Fontana Lake about an hour and a half away. *We'll keep the Yankee home
and use (hopefully) this one in the winter.

Idiot.

Pig.

g.

David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-10-11 20:54:38 -0400, jeff said:


"give peace a chance"


In other news: Joanne and I have just about settled on a beautiful home
on a ridge in North Georgia with an unbelievable view from south to
north overlooking several smaller ridges and two or three mountain
ranges. They just seem to keep on coming as you look west. The sunset
is beautiful. The home is in a gated community surrounded by the
Chattahoochee Nat'l Forest. Dukes Creek is around the corner, with
Fontana Lake about an hour and a half away. We'll keep the Yankee home
and use (hopefully) this one in the winter.

Dave


great...look forward to having you as a seasonal neighbor... rachel and
i still hope to do something with our land in graham county...but still
mired down east.

jeff

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:54:38 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:

First and foremost, since you seem to have put some thought into a reply, and
done so (seemingly) seriously, reasonably and courteously, I wanted to return
the favor, if you will. Please note that this was written as I've had a spare
moment here and there, over a couple of days, since your reply - I've tried to
edit/proofread, but I've probably missed some things.

he changed the direction of this country (and the perceptions of this
country) long before january 20, 2009.

No, he really hasn't. But from the other side, um...no, he really hasn't...but
see below...

well...yes, he really has. he began a movement...a sea-change in ideas
and ideals and politics.

Among who? How? Can you give some examples of this "sea-change"? Now, if you
mean that "liberals" are now fans of the POTUS and "conservatives" aren't, sure,
but that's not Obama, that's politics. It seems there has been very little
change in politics or ideas, only a change in who is in the majority and pushing
their own agendas. And yep, if McCain had won (other than with perhaps my
hoped-for-but-unrealistic McCain/Obama ticket), there would not have been
anything much new, either.

now, diplomacy is different.

It is? How?

UN policy and talk is decidedly different.

Are you serious? The only thing most of those heavily involved with UN are
interested in is having a continued tit to suck. Look no further than all the
shtick with al-Qaddafi and the tent and, what, the second or third major
walk-out over the Ahmedinejad, Israel, and the Holocaust? The UN, for the most
part, is a ****in' circus.

foreign relations are different.

Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, China, Israel, for example...? Or are you
referring to the fact that the government of France hasn't been quite as bitchy
for a few months?

appreciation of civil rights, individual liberties, constitutional rights are
different.

The Dem-controlled Senate - specifically, AHEM, the Judiciary Committee - just
started the process to renew substantial portions of the Patriot Act...at the
behest of and with the support of the Obama administration...and Obama wanted to
be able to "seize the Internet" or some such nonsense. Frankly, it seems to me
that those on the left are willing to let other lefties **** them, but bristle
when they think the right is trying to do it. I would offer as a instant
example Obama's recent speech, but lack of overall action, on the whole "gay
rights" issue. Look, I don't understand the whole "gay marriage" thing, but I
can't see any reason why they shouldn't have the same right to be unhappy as
straight folks... Seriously, though, why is a secular national government even
involved in or concerned with who marries who versus "civil unions"?

torture policies are different.

AHA! So that's what he's done with "Don't ask, don't tell"...

I'd offer that if you think what you'd consider "torture" has stopped under
Obama, I think you'd be sadly disappointed. And I'd offer as evidence his
endorsement of certain US Army manuals. They allow things that would be
considered "torture" under the same guidelines used to classify water-boarding
"torture".

integrity of decision-making is different.

Here, I substantially disagree. While Bush's decisions weren't always right, he
did tend to stick by both them and his people. And while I understand the
argument that if it appears from reasonable and credible evidence that one has
made a "wrong" decision, changing one's mind would make sense. Unfortunately,
many of the decisions a President must make are difficult ones and aren't ones
such that lend themselves to "instant (reasonable) feedback." And thus far with
Obama, I don't see a lot of decision-making of any kind.

honest statements to the public...different.

Um, do you mean different lies or ??? Assuming you mean to imply that Obama is
more honest than past presidents, what about "transparency"? Howsabout time for
public input on major legislation? Closing Gitmo? Troops out of Iraq? How
about just being honest about a friggin' trip to Copenhagen?

economic push, different.

Two words - Ben Bernanke.

regard for the balance of power between branches of govt...different.

Actually, all POTUS' since Nixon/Ford have been doing is taking back some of the
power "snatched" by Congress in the wake of Watergate. And Obama certainly
hasn't done anything to reverse the trend. And I suspect that if he could do
some more, um, "snatching" with regard to Pelosi, Reid, Sessions, and a few
others, he wouldn't hesitate for a second.

appointment of federal judges...way, way different (and better...g)

Again, I disagree. Sotomayor gives no evidence of being a serious legal scholar
of any stripe, or even a particularly "even" and (merely) competent jurist.

talking about the facts
instead of creating facts to talk about...huge difference.

Well, I will grant you that he certainly does a lot of talking...

he's restored pride to a substantial segment of the population that felt lost, left
out, used, taken for granted, and burdened.

Um, who, exactly?

he can speak intelligently, powerfully...inspiring folks...way different.

Again, his speech-making can and will only do much - sooner or later, he's gonna
need to quit talking about what he's gonna do and do _something_ - accomplish
_something_ substantial - that he promised he'd accomplish...

there is a sense of integrity, honor, and truth. there is a recognition of the value of
other cultures and different perspectives. his efforts for a nuclear
weapon-free world. (or nukular) he's black. just look at how he was
received here and in other countries in 2008... why do you think that
happened?

The media, including the Internet "media." It's also why Paris Hilton is, well,
Paris Hilton. And if his racial makeup is important (I'm not sure why it would
be important as to policy, etc. but...), he's not "black," he's half-black and
half-white. That in and of itself isn't particularly important to his handling
of substantive issues, but it is important that you, like most people, seem to
forget it. Well, "forget it" isn't quite right, but when you point out his
racial makeup, you are inaccurate about it. Based upon his actual racial
makeup, why would you not say, "he's white"? It is just as accurate.

i just don't understand the schadenfreude for obama that some have...

I don't either - thus far, he really hasn't done or accomplished much of
anything - from any standpoint. A ban on guns? Nope. A rise in taxes? Nope.
Gay atheist Muslim dope-smoking liberal hippie commies encouraging grade-school
kids to use condoms for unnatural sex in Heartland, Kansas? Nope. The Abortion
Czar putting PETA supporters at every mall with a coathanger? Not even close.
"Christmas (or Hanukkah) - no, Kwanzaa (or Ramadan) - yes." Hardly. Are Bush,
Cheney, and the CIA being investigated? Nop...er, ye...er, nop...er, ye....er,
nop...well, maybe...or not...

folks want him to fail,

Some do, yes. Most don't. IMO, the vast majority of those in the US (and
really, the world) don't want _any_ major leader who (generally) mirrors their
(general) views to "fail." Basic nature and decency aside, it's just not in
their interest.

want to find fault.

Why was it, for some, so "patriotic" to question every move Bush made, every
word he uttered, but it's only the insert ad hominem here that would question
_anything_ Obama does or says? Are you suggesting he has done nothing with
which anyone could/should objectively find fault?

go out of their way to condemn him. ...and, of course, it's all his fault.

See above.

are you saying he's not tried in any meaningful, substantive, and honest way to implement or
initiate important change?

Not tried? There's not really enough information to determine that. I will say
that there is very little evidence that he has really tried to implement
important change. Take, for example, his "transparency, ""public review period"
and "no lobbyist" promises. These are things over which he has more-or-less
complete control, and yet, no real change in spite of all the talking about
them.

what do you think he should have done, or
done differently? pick something...and talk about his efforts
objectively as the executive branch...

See immediately above.


Thus far, about all he has REALLY accomplished is to REALLY divide those he is
supposed to be President of....yeah, yeah, yeah, I know - it's ALL the fault of
the other side...(and in all seriousness, most of the division isn't his
"fault," nor did he "cause" all of it, but OTOH, neither he nor his
administration has done much of anything to ease it, either, and they have
encouraged some of it)

tell me...what has he done to cause the divide...other than be black? my
take is he's bent over backwards to try to find consensus, to encourage
discussion and compromise. ken and others may be right...perhaps he
should just say screw the repubs and push the agenda. i don't think so.
i like his approach.

Again, he's not "black," but that aside, for one, he could have provided a copy
of his birth certificate. From a purely objective standpoint, if an employee
has to prove citizenship to get a job in the US, an alleged citizen has to prove
it to get Medicare, etc., why shouldn't he? IOW, why is the demand of an
employer to see proof of citizenship improper? I fully realize the touchiness
of that topic, but objectively, why not end the controversy and do what,
technically, is a legal requirement (and I'll grant that I'm not sure whether
the "short-form" already bandied about would suffice or not)? If you want more
examples, I can provide them, but that is one of the simplest for him to
dispel/clear up and "heal the divide," if you will. And it would have the added
benefit of shutting up the truly out-there "birthers" or whatever they are
called. OTOH, if he doesn't actually want to "heal the divide" and shut up the
loons for his own political reasons....


IAC, while I haven't polled them, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the
great majority of the world don't really know or care about Obama or any other
POTUS, anymore than most of those in the US know or really care about how
Indians, Chinese, Portuguese, or those any other country feel or are governed


i haven't polled them either...but i'll go out on the same limb and say
more people in the world can tell you who obama is than can tell you who
herta muller is (and probably more than can identify william faulkner).

I;m not sure of your point, but I'd agree with the statement. IAC, how about
Mao Tse Tung, Joseph Stalin, Wen Jiabao, Musharraf, Patil, Yudhoyono, Gandhi,
Muhammad, Allah/God (and no, I'm not comparing anything but numbers of people of
can identify them)? How about the various members of the Bachchan family
(including Aishwarya Rai, and again, simple name-recognition comparison)? David
Hasselhof, Jerry Lewis, Posh and Becks or whatever they are called?

think back on his speech in germany...his visits to other
countries...the muslim world reaction... i think you understate the
general view of world leaders ... russia, china, us, uk, israel, middle
east, etc., and their political systems and populaces.

Oh, there's no doubt the media whipped some in Europe into the same tizzy into
which they whipped those in the US (and you'll note you're referring to yet
_another_ speech), but I think you are the one who is misreading world leaders
in general, esp. "rulers." For example, Norway - while it is a perfectly nice
country with generally nice folks, I'm sure, it ain't exactly a "world power." I
think many "rulers" saw a novice, feel-good kinda guy from whom they could get
more of their way with than they could other of the potential choices (and that
includes Hillary Clinton). IOW, their glee was more at their chances than the
US'...and he has probably done more to damage the US' rep with our two
most-powerful allies in the Middle East - Israel and the Iranian _people_ - than
Bush did. And he hasn't done much to keep the heat on Pakistan's leadership,
either.

unless they simply acknowledge being a rascist.

Hmmm...what about when certain sectors (and I mean sectors of races, not entire
races) of the various... um.... non-(half)white people blamed _everything_ on
white people...? Was that not "racist?" As an aside, is a rascist anything
like a facist?

yeah, yeah...racist... and i don't think racists exist only in a
single color or race. still, i accept there is an historical and real
basis for the black hatred of whites in the u.s. - a basis or reason for
the emotion that i can't find an equal underpinning for with the white
racists...maybe you can explain it?

Oh, to be sure, there are still some sheet-cutting rednecks around who dislike
Obama simply because he's half-black (to them, any black in the racial makeup is
_black_ - hint, hint), and others who are just...well, not really "racist" in
the common phrasing, but "racist" in the general sense that most folks are more
comfortable with those "like them," be they "white," "black," "brown," "yellow,"
or whatever other keying term one uses. But I don't think the majority of those
who aren't as enamored of Obama as you feel the way they do because of race.
Which is another thing, IMO, he has failed to do - take a firm stand on the
issue. He (and the administration) allow supporters (and to a lesser extent,
surrogates) to label those opposed to his proposed policy(s), ideas, promises,
etc. as "racist." His proposals, stated ideas, etc. are generally pretty
standard left-ish Dem stuff, many of which any of the "usual suspects" would
propose and which most center-right-to-right "usual suspects" would oppose, all
regardless of respective "race." Simply put, he's using (and tacitly allowing
the use of) the charge of "racism" to foster a divide and attempt to make a
political advantage with it.

i'll wager though that of all the nobel recipients, he
is easily the most recognizable and best-known in the world.

Except, apparently, in Poland...

too obscure for me...but see above...

It was a reference to Lech Walesa and his comments, "Who?...." And you
might want to look over the list of winners. I would agree he is probably the
best-known of the 2009 nominees from the "western world." I'm not sure that's
what it was intended to be all about, though.


And your statement above is a pretty good indication of what I feel is the whole
problem - "Americancentricism." And note that I did not write "Americentric" or
similar.

don't get your meaning...but that's nothing new. please explain.

Well, read your own post. It's from the perspective of an "American," of
course, but it seems to indicate your belief that what an "American" believes or
thinks about Obama is what the world population believes or thinks. Why, for
example, would an "average worker" in China, India, Indonesia, etc., know or
care much about Obama or his policies, promises, "hope," etc.? To be sure, some
of the world populace thinks of "America" and what they perceive that it
represents _for them_, some good (ala "the American Dream") and some bad ("the
HQ of the infidels"). But I'd offer that most are pretty much agnostic about
it. Yet, "Americans" think that the thoughts of the world _population_ revolves
around "America." Again, to be sure, a portion of the world "ruling class" has
knowledge of it and does pay attention to a fair portion of "American" things,
but it is mostly out of self-interest as opposed to desire to be "American." The
Peace Prize is awarded by 5 people chosen by the Norwegian legislature - we're
not talking about, pardon the pun, a great council of "world leaders" or even a
large body of the world's peoples, yet "Americans" who support Obama want to
point to it as some vast affirmation of him by the world. And what are other
"leaders" supposed to say about his win? Of course they are gonna be diplomatic
about it, at least those who want something.

my hope is for people, especially those in other countries, to believe
genuinely that our president promotes and desires peaceful solutions. we
are too often a violent short-sighted society, rightly perceived as
such, with petty purposes and ideas.

Um, who exactly is "we"...?

we = u.s. public/society/culture

Oh. I thought you might mean all of mankind or something...just checking...and
see above, Americancentricism...

i like having a president who
doesn't fit that mold, and who garners the admiration and respect of
other world leaders...not to mention the nobel committee.

What makes you think he is "admired and respected" by "world leaders?"

i think it based on my reading... and based on newscasts i've seen on
teevee.

Uh-oh. How much "world news" do you watch/follow?


i'm incredibly proud of obama...he's doing a terrific job as president
under the worst of circumstances.

OK. Please give examples of why you feel he is doing a terrific job.

see above... i trust you understand "worst of circumstances."

Where above? Are you referring to his speeches, teevee, or ???

though the bewilderingly hostile chasm and wasteland between repubs and
dems, conservatives and liberals, (using those labels in the most
dogmatic sense) keeps us a divided nation, i am seeing more folks (like
paul...and even tim g) in recent months who are willing to express
their dissatisfaction with the way things have been and who are seeking
ways to bridge the divide. it's encouraging... as is a president
awarded the nobel peace prize.

I'm curious - when Obama said he didn't deserve it, did you feel that he was
being honest, falsely modest, disingenuous, or ??? And if you feel he was being
honest, why do you disagree with him? IOW, why do you feel that he does deserve
it when he honestly disagrees with you?


i thought he was being genuine...a real and humble and honest human
being...who recognized the power of his symbol and his efforts, that
were being encouraged. i don't think i chimed in saying he did or did
not deserve it...the nobel committee, carrying out the will of alfred
nobel, decided he deserved it. the committee is comprised of
non-americancentrists, don't you agree? they've been in the business of
making selections since early 1900s. it's their job and their
choice...not yours or mine. we can debate our view of the merit of the
selection...but it ain't debatable that i'm proud of it and encouraged
by it.

Again, the Peace Prize is chosen by 5 people who themselves are chosen by the
Norwegian legislature. Let me ask you this, if 5 people chosen by the Senate or
the House "chose" to nuke, say, Belgium today, would you support it? Or let me
put it in real terms - since about 20 people chosen by the Senate, which was
supposedly chosen "by the people" (US) voted in support of the bulk of the
Patriot Act (with the support of Obama), will you state your unequivocal support
for that part brought forward?

i admit i was surprised. i believe i said i was proud and encouraged
that our president received the prize.

Why? What is it about the opinion of those 5 people that is so important _to
you_?

clearly, to me and based on the statements contained in nobel's will,
the prize is intended to recognize and encourage potential and the
possible effects of the selection. i think obama was perceived as
bringing a better sense of reason and balance to a precarious and
dangerous set of world circumstances.

Er, no. While it was not intended to be based solely on results, it was to
based upon efforts. Let me ask you this - if it is such a powerful motivational
tool, why not give it to all of the leaders in the Middle East every year until
there is peace? I mean, with such a powerful motivation for potential, it
wouldn't take but a couple of years, right?

jose merida (yeah, about as well known as jeff miller) said he thought
the prize to obama also "recognized the american people who dared to
vote for a change of the u.s. role in the world." perception can become
reality... "give peace a chance"

And you feel continuing the "wars" in Iraq and Afghanistan - neither of which
are really "wars" and neither of which is "winnable" by any side in a "warfare"
sense - is giving peace a chance?


jeff


TC,
R