A little hope

Warren wrote:

wrote...


I was reading a magazine the other day and saw an article about
redband rainbows. The article was in the Flyfishing & Tying
Journal's Winter 2004 edition. The article was entitled "Air, Earth,
Fire and Water" and was written by some ****bag named Tom Alkire. My
favorite quote is "I measured the water temperature at 78 degrees,
warm even for redbands. It was no wonder there weren't any fish in
the main stem as it was warmer still. I put on a size-18 sparkle
white Serendipity and began floating it in the film in the shaded
areas, little slots under overhanging bushes, safe harbors from the
heat and predators."

This type of reasoning is very disturbing to me. It is very similar
to "The Henry's Fork is on its way downhill and is not nearly the
fishery it once was. But I still fish it because my impact doesn't
matter. It is everyone else's fault or the fault of something else.
My meager contributions don't amount to a hill of beans so I can just
keep doing what I used to do. I'll ignore the fact that if everyone
else thinks the same way I do, we will all be ****ed in the end." I
bet you complained about how crowded it was compared to how it used
to be too......

I agree with your well stated position, but I don't know if you should
be laying it on Larry. The way I see it, is that he cares about the
resource because he has seen it and experienced it at its best and
because of that, wants to see it that way again. Nothing wrong with that
IMO.

Willi

wrote...
I agree with your well stated position, but I don't know if you should
be laying it on Larry. The way I see it, is that he cares about the
resource because he has seen it and experienced it at its best and
because of that, wants to see it that way again. Nothing wrong with that
IMO.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting a return to "the good old
days" either and never claimed to see anything wrong with that view.
Just merely making some observations and offering a few suggestions.
:-)
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt...nConclave.html

Warren you should be a little more compasionate to L or someone will **** on
you!!!
only a true PRICK would degrade the mother earth that born your ass...
let along degrade someone who is trying to improve your world.
TULM
"Warren" wrote in message
...
wrote...
I agree with your well stated position, but I don't know if you should
be laying it on Larry. The way I see it, is that he cares about the
resource because he has seen it and experienced it at its best and
because of that, wants to see it that way again. Nothing wrong with that
IMO.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting a return to "the good old
days" either and never claimed to see anything wrong with that view.
Just merely making some observations and offering a few suggestions.
:-)
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt...nConclave.html

wrote...
Warren you should be a little more compasionate to L or someone will **** on
you!!!

That wasn't very compassionate......Willi, pass me a tissue. *sniff
sniff*

only a true PRICK would degrade the mother earth that born your ass...

LOL!

let along degrade someone who is trying to improve your world.

Methinks your reading comprehension may be somewhat lacking. Why not
go back and reread what I wrote so that you may actually understand
it. Okay, I'll just throw you a clue in case you are fresh out. I
never disagreed with Larry on working towards improving fisheries and
was merely pointing out that we all play a role in the fisheries we
use. The impacts from our own use should be examined and weighed
when there are problems with our fisheries. This is something that
has not always been done in the past and something that we all need
to think about IMO. This could be in the form of thinking of what
our impact will be on the fish as water temps start to rise, fishing
during flows that are stressful to the fish, overcrowding issues,
over fishing, etc.

Or is it your contention that fisherman do not have an impact and
play absolutely no role in any degradation to our fisheries?

Thank you for your intelligent and extremely valuable comments. May
you have a wonderful day!
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt...nConclave.html

Sorry Warren
I just believe if you TAKE something from this earth you should Give
something back...
For Extinction is an unusual form of death
death is one thing , an end to Birth is something else...
Yes I do believe man has an impact on the earth that we live and thats why I
lobby congress and senators to consider your actions ,to clean up the mess
that everyone leaves behind
and provide moneys to hatcherys to produce the very fish that you catch ,
And to stop things like EXAMPLE:
We were fishing on a creek and waded mybe 2-3 miles upstream when I looked
over
at the bank and about ten foot out into the water was a pvc pole sticking up
thinking what is this I waded over
and found a phone box like on the outside of your house on it !
Later I found out some dumb ass doctor had it installed so he could be in
touch. they treached 2-3 miles from road.
He soon found out there are other people did not like it. And after several
maintence charges to repair it.
removed.And yes we all are guilty of abuse of Nature and other people. But
all I ask is GIVE SOMETHING BACK
and take nothing in return for once.
even if you can stop by and Thank the Ranger doing his job and or anyone
trying to help your fishing rights.

"Warren" wrote in message
...
wrote...
Warren you should be a little more compasionate to L or someone will
**** on
you!!!

That wasn't very compassionate......Willi, pass me a tissue. *sniff
sniff*

only a true PRICK would degrade the mother earth that born your ass...

LOL!

let along degrade someone who is trying to improve your world.

Methinks your reading comprehension may be somewhat lacking. Why not
go back and reread what I wrote so that you may actually understand
it. Okay, I'll just throw you a clue in case you are fresh out. I
never disagreed with Larry on working towards improving fisheries and
was merely pointing out that we all play a role in the fisheries we
use. The impacts from our own use should be examined and weighed
when there are problems with our fisheries. This is something that
has not always been done in the past and something that we all need
to think about IMO. This could be in the form of thinking of what
our impact will be on the fish as water temps start to rise, fishing
during flows that are stressful to the fish, overcrowding issues,
over fishing, etc.

Or is it your contention that fisherman do not have an impact and
play absolutely no role in any degradation to our fisheries?

Thank you for your intelligent and extremely valuable comments. May
you have a wonderful day!
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt...nConclave.html

"TroutHunter" wrote in message
...

message lost in translation

Please repost.......in English.

Thank you.

Wolfgang

"TroutHunter" wrote in message
...
Sorry Warren
I just believe if you TAKE something from this earth you should Give
something back...
For Extinction is an unusual form of death
death is one thing , an end to Birth is something else...
Yes I do believe man has an impact on the earth that we live and thats why
I
lobby congress and senators to consider your actions ,to clean up the mess
that everyone leaves behind
and provide moneys to hatcherys to produce the very fish that you catch ,
And to stop things like EXAMPLE:
We were fishing on a creek and waded mybe 2-3 miles upstream when I looked
over
at the bank and about ten foot out into the water was a pvc pole sticking
up
thinking what is this I waded over
and found a phone box like on the outside of your house on it !
Later I found out some dumb ass doctor had it installed so he could be in
touch. they treached 2-3 miles from road.
He soon found out there are other people did not like it. And after
several
maintence charges to repair it.
removed.And yes we all are guilty of abuse of Nature and other people. But
all I ask is GIVE SOMETHING BACK
and take nothing in return for once.
even if you can stop by and Thank the Ranger doing his job and or anyone
trying to help your fishing rights.

"Warren" wrote in message
...
wrote...
Warren you should be a little more compasionate to L or someone will
**** on
you!!!

That wasn't very compassionate......Willi, pass me a tissue. *sniff
sniff*

only a true PRICK would degrade the mother earth that born your ass...

LOL!

let along degrade someone who is trying to improve your world.

Methinks your reading comprehension may be somewhat lacking. Why not
go back and reread what I wrote so that you may actually understand
it. Okay, I'll just throw you a clue in case you are fresh out. I
never disagreed with Larry on working towards improving fisheries and
was merely pointing out that we all play a role in the fisheries we
use. The impacts from our own use should be examined and weighed
when there are problems with our fisheries. This is something that
has not always been done in the past and something that we all need
to think about IMO. This could be in the form of thinking of what
our impact will be on the fish as water temps start to rise, fishing
during flows that are stressful to the fish, overcrowding issues,
over fishing, etc.

Or is it your contention that fisherman do not have an impact and
play absolutely no role in any degradation to our fisheries?

Thank you for your intelligent and extremely valuable comments. May
you have a wonderful day!
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
For Conclave Info:
http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt...nConclave.html

TroutHunter wrote:

Sorry Warren
I just believe if you TAKE something from this earth you should Give
something back...
For Extinction is an unusual form of death
death is one thing , an end to Birth is something else...
Yes I do believe man has an impact on the earth that we live and thats why I
lobby congress and senators to consider your actions ,to clean up the mess
that everyone leaves behind
and provide moneys to hatcherys to produce the very fish that you catch ,


Maybe more of that hatchery money should be used to improve conditions
so the fish are self sustaining?

Willi

Warren wrote:



Methinks your reading comprehension may be somewhat lacking. Why not
go back and reread what I wrote so that you may actually understand
it. Okay, I'll just throw you a clue in case you are fresh out. I
never disagreed with Larry on working towards improving fisheries and
was merely pointing out that we all play a role in the fisheries we
use. The impacts from our own use should be examined and weighed
when there are problems with our fisheries. This is something that
has not always been done in the past and something that we all need
to think about IMO. This could be in the form of thinking of what
our impact will be on the fish as water temps start to rise, fishing
during flows that are stressful to the fish, overcrowding issues,
over fishing, etc.


The over crowding thing is tough for me to be consistent about.
Personally I'm in favor of rules limiting the number of fishermen on
over crowded waters. Although I usually fish less known places, I will
fish some of the famous waters where I sincerely believe over fishing
has some significant impact. Hypocritical, I guess.

Willi

"Willi" wrote

The over crowding thing is tough




Yes, it is

We all have some negative impact, regardless of where we fish, or breathe.
The best we can hope for is to "tread lightly" on the land. As I typed
this, I realized that I really don't know what effects crowding has been
shown to have on the actual habitat and resource. I, therefore, have sent
5 e-mails, and two of the snail variety to people I know have far more
chance to observe and develop informed opinion and to a good friend that did
graduate study in fisheries biology at Hat Creek. I don't expect to become
an instant expert, but I do hope to get a snowball of information rolling my
direction and possibly be pointed at places to find more answers.

Everywhere I fish I try to minimize my negative effects. Specifically, I
wade as little as possible and still cover the fish. Trampling the
invertebrates and plants would seem to be a big cause of ill effect.

The HF was more crowded at times in the past than the last few years, AND
fished far better too. Not to deny that crowding is a strain on the
resource. I honestly think that effects of fishing pressure can be seen at
a genetic level, in our fish, on many famous waters, at this point. But
"water issues" are a far greater problem, the last few years.

The actual number of people is down, but the "type" of people
one is crowded with has changed, and not for "the better." That makes the
social strain of a given amount of crowding greater. I have discussed this
with many "old timers" including several "famous" ones,
and find we all agree ..........
whether our perception is that of grumpy "good old days," bitchers,
I can't be sure,
..... as I'm stuck, here, in my own perspective.

Which leads to another crowding issue, the effect we have on each other's
enjoyment and appreciation of the resource.

There have been several days since the mid-70s, that I have walked most
of the Harriman Ranch but never got in the water because there was no place
with rising fish I could do so, without risking ruining the experience for
others.... one must give what one hopes to get ... I believe.

I "solve" the crowd thing on the Fork by fishing out of the "ranch" most of
the peak late June/early July period, but, that isn't working as well as it
used to, as more people discover other sections.

Sure there are exceptions. If I know big, 20++ inch fish are likely to be
up and "easy" for the Brown Drakes, it's hard to stay away completely. But,
I go alone and I get there early and "stake a claim" rather than show up
last minute, in a group, and barge in.
And anyone that comes by, alone, and
tries to treat "my" space with respect is given the offer to join me, when
the water is very crowded. More than once I've offered a fish or spot, then
left without fishing myself.. I'm usually aware that I'm lucky to have a
far more flexible schedule than most, and have for 30 years, ... I can fish
when they must work.

Back to the habitat.

It's hard to express how positive the "Winter water" the HF is getting this
year really is. This is something that has never been granted before, when
water was scarce. I've talked to past honchos of HFF and I know the
effort has been made to secure it, and failed, since the early 90s, at
least.

Anyone that loves any fishery should be overjoyed that an irrigation
district has reversed past policy on the value of fish ... this is how
trends start and progress comes, in time, to YOUR beloved water.

Besides trying to "tread lightly," I also give as much money as I can to
HFF, and three other groups active in the Yellowstone area. I also
donated to the $3 bridge project, even though I very seldom fish the lower
Madison myself ( I think public access will be a major issue for future
generations, if not for me .. precedent needs to be set ).

I have also volunteered my time to HFF and asked at two fly shops in the
area for help finding such work I could do during my summer visits ...
The HFF hasn't gotten back to me, and the
only other "volunteer job" offered was one I didn't feel I could physically
handle, I'm slightly crippled, and obese and it was 'backcountry" ... but
I'm still willing and looking.

It's impossible to avoid having negative impact. You build a house and you
destroy habitat, but then you out back and build a pond and, nearly
instantly, more animals use your land than ever before. You hope the
bottom line is a net gain. I don't know that I will achieve it, but I'd
like to go to my death bed feeling my "bottom line" will be a net gain for
habitats I've used. I have helped ( driven the tractors, not just sent
money ) to revive two large wetlands that are now "legally" permanent and
honestly feel my use of them as a hunter and dog trainer has yielded a net
gain. For my fishing, my contributions, so far, have been mainly that,
money.

I think about the FF things I "bitch" about, ..... as a lot like global
warming. Real problems, in a real world, with no easy solutions.

But, a big grin and business as usual isn't an effort to improve things.

Even mentioning concern will always be "bitching and whining" to some,
but pretending problems aren't there is bushdumb ( i.e. real dumb ).
Hopefully the bitching will stir some to their own small, private, actions.

I'm not about to "leave the earth" because I contribute to global
warming, or fishing pressure. But, I do try and find ways to "travel as
lightly as possible" within the practicality of my means.

I vote and spend ( both, very important tools for change ) to reflect my
concern, and I've tried to educate my son to do likewise.

I AGREE with Warren, each of us should find a mirror and look hard into it
to see what could be improved. But, not just the people from "far, far
away."

Tight lines