OT Food for thought

Wolfgang wrote:

Subsidies are not always direct and readily visible. Here in the U.S. the
beef indutry is, as you know, heavily subsidized through the practice of
allowing ranchers to destroy millions of acres of public land by grazing
their cattle on it. Any similar practices or other hidden subsidies in
Canada?

These types of uses are generally under the jurisdiction of the
province. Land can be leased from the crown for grazing, but is done on
a competitive bid basis and the applicant pays for the use of the land.
How much, I don't know, but the leases are awarded to the highest
bidder, so it is not free.


Tim Lysyk

"Tim Lysyk" wrote in message
news:Heu0c.36315$A12.5951@edtnps84...
Wolfgang wrote:

Subsidies are not always direct and readily visible. Here in the U.S.
the
beef indutry is, as you know, heavily subsidized through the practice of
allowing ranchers to destroy millions of acres of public land by grazing
their cattle on it. Any similar practices or other hidden subsidies in
Canada?

These types of uses are generally under the jurisdiction of the
province. Land can be leased from the crown for grazing, but is done on
a competitive bid basis and the applicant pays for the use of the land.
How much, I don't know, but the leases are awarded to the highest
bidder, so it is not free.

But, of course, it doesn't have to be entirely free to be a subsidy.
Anything below fair market value (however that may be determined) will do.

Wolfgang

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:54:51 -0600, "Wolfgang"
wrote:


"Tim Lysyk" wrote in message
news:Heu0c.36315$A12.5951@edtnps84...
Wolfgang wrote:

Subsidies are not always direct and readily visible. Here in the U.S.
the
beef indutry is, as you know, heavily subsidized through the practice of
allowing ranchers to destroy millions of acres of public land by grazing
their cattle on it. Any similar practices or other hidden subsidies in
Canada?

These types of uses are generally under the jurisdiction of the
province. Land can be leased from the crown for grazing, but is done on
a competitive bid basis and the applicant pays for the use of the land.
How much, I don't know, but the leases are awarded to the highest
bidder, so it is not free.

But, of course, it doesn't have to be entirely free to be a subsidy.
Anything below fair market value (however that may be determined) will do.

Wolfgang


Provided the auction isn't rigged and there are enough bidders, an
auction is usually a good indicator of fair market value.

Peter

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Peter Charles wrote:



Provided the auction isn't rigged and there are enough bidders, an
auction is usually a good indicator of fair market value.


hmmm... i went to a coastal conservation association banquet. there was
an auction. 400 potential bidders present. $50 prints brought $400;
nothing sold anywhere the normal retail or even wholesale. in these
parts, auctions are considered opportunities to get things at bargain
prices...though, on occasions they seem to become soap boxes for
personal pride or wants, and bids unexplainably skyrocket out of the
range of reason. usually, an auction is a good method of getting
something sold...i'm not sure i would trust it as a method of
establishing fair market value.

btw...i went shad fishing this weekend. it was mcphee brought home.
others near me caught a few; i struck out (fortunately jim went founding
fishless too). yesterday, we pulled up at a spot in a backwoods creek
(same place we took indian joe last year). the hunting club had built a
small dock nearby. a fella was perched on it with a zebco-appearing
closed spinning reel. he was wearing his church-attending shirt, bermuda
shorts, shoes & socks. he claimed it was his first time ever shad
fishing. he caught more than 10 in our moments nearby. he looked at us
and grinned with each catch. i was close to committing a serious
criminal offense. neither jim nor i had even a bump from an angry shad.
of more than 50 shad fishermen...all in boats trying to find the best
shad lies g...this one fella was the only one we saw catch a fish. it
looks to be a very humiliating season of fishing.

Jeff Miller wrote:

Peter Charles wrote:

Provided the auction isn't rigged and there are enough bidders, an
auction is usually a good indicator of fair market value.

hmmm... i went to a coastal conservation association banquet. there was
an auction. 400 potential bidders present. $50 prints brought $400;
nothing sold anywhere the normal retail or even wholesale. in these
parts, auctions are considered opportunities to get things at bargain
prices...though, on occasions they seem to become soap boxes for
personal pride or wants, and bids unexplainably skyrocket out of the
range of reason. usually, an auction is a good method of getting
something sold...i'm not sure i would trust it as a method of
establishing fair market value.

Apples and oranges. There is a difference between a "vanity" auction
fundraising event where the proceeds go to charity and a hardnosed,
strictly business auction. In Illinois when you buy a property at
auction the value of that property for tax purposes is set to exactly
the auction price by law.

--
Ken Fortenberry

not sure peter qualified his auction contention, other than to say it
shouldn't be "rigged" and there should be enough bidders. reputable
real estate appraisers in this area don't use auction sales as a guide
or comparable sale in determining fair market value. typically, real
estate auctions here are forced events... foreclosures & liquidations.
purchasers are motivated to attend and to bid by the "get it cheap"
mindset. frequently, banks buy at auction for amount owed on the
mortgage payoff, not the fmv if listed on the open market. the ad
valorem property tax base here would go to hell in a handbasket if the
auction bids determined real estate values. no responsible government
would allow that to happen. g

jeff

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

Apples and oranges. There is a difference between a "vanity" auction
fundraising event where the proceeds go to charity and a hardnosed,
strictly business auction. In Illinois when you buy a property at
auction the value of that property for tax purposes is set to exactly
the auction price by law.

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:44:57 -0500, Jeff Miller
wrote:

not sure peter qualified his auction contention, other than to say it
shouldn't be "rigged" and there should be enough bidders. reputable
real estate appraisers in this area don't use auction sales as a guide
or comparable sale in determining fair market value. typically, real
estate auctions here are forced events... foreclosures & liquidations.
purchasers are motivated to attend and to bid by the "get it cheap"
mindset. frequently, banks buy at auction for amount owed on the
mortgage payoff, not the fmv if listed on the open market. the ad
valorem property tax base here would go to hell in a handbasket if the
auction bids determined real estate values. no responsible government
would allow that to happen. g

jeff

Consider the nature of the bidders -- cattlemen with 1,000s of head of
cattle and in need of a place to graze them. That's way different
than a charity or liquidation auction. If he has no place for his
cattle, he is out of business.

Keep in mind that when I mayde that comment, I'm an ex-banker with
plenty of expereince in liquidating assets and I spend plenty of time
on ebay so I do have some idea about these things.

Y'know, it's just possible that the Canadian beef industry isn't
subsidized. Funnier things have been known to happen.

Peter

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Jeff Miller wrote:
not sure peter qualified his auction contention, other than to say it
shouldn't be "rigged" and there should be enough bidders. reputable
real estate appraisers in this area don't use auction sales as a guide
or comparable sale in determining fair market value. typically, real
estate auctions here are forced events... foreclosures & liquidations.
purchasers are motivated to attend and to bid by the "get it cheap"
mindset. frequently, banks buy at auction for amount owed on the
mortgage payoff, not the fmv if listed on the open market. the ad
valorem property tax base here would go to hell in a handbasket if the
auction bids determined real estate values. no responsible government
would allow that to happen. g

I can't say whether the grazing auctions in Canada are fair, but I'm
damn sure they're more fair than our system in the US. The BLM awards
grazing leases for a fixed per/acre fee, regardless of quality. The fee
is absurdly low compared to fees for leasing private grazing rights. The
rancher, or more typically the huge agribusiness corporation, who holds
the lease keeps the lease, year-to-year. No auction.

If the lease holder is breaking the law -- for example, by allowing his
cattle to graze in critical salmon habitat, breaking down the stream
banks -- he can expect the government to buy him out. It happened here.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
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Peter Charles wrote:



Provided the auction isn't rigged and there are enough bidders, an
auction is usually a good indicator of fair market value.


Indian Joe remembers---don't know whether you would called "rigged" or not
but better not attend any Duck's Unlimited banquets if you are looking for
fair market value. You have a few drinks--you eat and drink a little more--
then the auction starts and the cute little wives bring you drinks and
encourage you to bid--" oh Joe you are not going to let harry have that
print are you?"
Next morning you wake up with a sorry print of 12 flying ducks for which
you paid$82 dollars each.
Two years later at divorce hearing she says part of your half of estate is
a $984 dollar art work--and she has tax deductible receipt from Ducks
Unlimited to prove that value.