Penn's Creek Clave...Say "I"

"Michael Makela" wrote in message
om...
Jeff Miller wrote in message
news:SW4sc.4106$zE6.3079@lakeread06...
snipped
stunned me with the viciousness of
the take, then simply turned in a power i've never felt before. had them
on until they decided to zip away

It's what keeps me coming back..

...they broke me off laughingly easy (5x and 4x tippet).

3X in Penn's is the standard. If they won't hit it, it's not worth the
heartbreak..although Roger showed up with some super-duper tippet from
the Northlands, maybe that would work better??



Which brings up a cultural thing that I've noticed (even in my novice
status). The idea of working with the lightest tippet you can get away with
is definately a North American thing. I know there are trade-offs, like the
supposition that fish won't strike if they see the leader, or that a thicker
tippet won't turn over as well so you need lighter tips to improve your
presentation. But those are directly outweighed by the simple fact that a
lighter tippet = more lost fish.

Everywhere else I have fished (Sweden, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, South
Africa, Norway...) the rule of thumb is to use the LARGEST tippet you can
get away with. Whereas a US angler might try a #7, get snapped off and move
to a #6, then a #5 if they continue to get busted, other folks start with a
#2 or #3, then move to a finer tippet if they find that they are being
ignored. And IMLE, they get ignored a lot less than you'd think, so they
usually just stick with the #3.

When I tied on some #7 tippet in front of a Finnish guide, he was amazed as
he had almost never seen tippet that light, although he had heard of it.
Shops hardly stocked it.

--riverman

I know there are trade-offs, like the supposition that fish won't strike if they see the leader....

Both George Harvey and Vince Marinaro, IIRC, conducted experiments to
demonstrate that it doesn't matter if the fish "see" the leader.

They attached short pieces of very heavy leader to flies, and dropped
them into the water. Fish took them eagerly.

The reason for a fine leader is not that it's hard for the fish to
see, but that it is more flexible and thus less likely to produce
drag.

vince

wrote...
Both George Harvey and Vince Marinaro, IIRC, conducted experiments to
demonstrate that it doesn't matter if the fish "see" the leader.

They attached short pieces of very heavy leader to flies, and dropped
them into the water. Fish took them eagerly.

The reason for a fine leader is not that it's hard for the fish to
see, but that it is more flexible and thus less likely to produce
drag.

I am curious, did they mention anything about the "shadow" cast from
a piece of leader? IME there is a big difference when dry fly
fishing versus nymphing because the leader/tippet diffracts the
light in very clear waders and leaves a "shadow" when on the surface
that causes very difficult, educated trout to flee. I've never
encountered this type of behavior when nymphing, even when using far
heavier leaders/tippet, though. If so, do you know the name of the
book or article so that I can read it?
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt on either yahoo or earthlink to respond via email)

Warren writes:
the leader/tippet diffracts the
light in very clear waders and leaves a "shadow" when on the surface
that causes very difficult, educated trout to flee.

we deal with that phenomenon here in the East a lot. Note Roger's comment, in
another thread, about starting to fish dries during the hatches to the good
fish on a downstream drift. Fly first, no leader to spot. Harvey did cite his
study as proving that one seldom needed less than 5X tippet for any trout fly
fishing. Even for midges and tricos he recommended 6X as a minor tactic. I
think he may have been correct, so long as the tippet is out of the trouts
view. Worth noting, the tests mentioned involved beetles, which get grabbed
quickly(and decided upon equally quickly) by most trout. A more deliberately
consumed food item(ex:abundant mayflies)
might produce different data.
Tom

"Tom Littleton" wrote

.. Even for midges and tricos he recommended 6X as a minor tactic. I
think he may have been correct, so long as the tippet is out of the trouts
view. Worth noting, the tests mentioned involved beetles, which get
grabbed
quickly(and decided upon equally quickly) by most trout. A more
deliberately
consumed food item(ex:abundant mayflies)
might produce different data.
Tom

this is a matter that i would have taken up with you, had i been
fortunate enough to have the time to appear at penns. there are several
trusted sources concerning the use of beetles and ants as killer terrestial
patterns for our high country trout. in my, um, several years on the
streams in tons, my experience has not matched the literature. the most
successful patterns throughout my life have been either stimulators (in
either yellow, orange, or royal wulff ties), yellow humpies, adams (either
paras or white winged adams, locally called "thunderheads"), or royal
wulffs. and i am taking into consideration the late summer and early fall
months.

maybe i have'nt been patient enough...maybe i don't see them as well,
and thus don't use them as often as i should... but they just don't ring my
bell (or the trout's bell)

as my buddy from pitt county often reminds us, i suppose this is all
part of "the great mystery".

yfitons
wayno

wayno, regarding terrestrials, notes:
maybe i have'nt been patient enough...maybe i don't see them as well,
and thus don't use them as often as i should... but they just don't ring my
bell (or the trout's bell)

FWIW, I took a Fishing Creek brown from the head of Uncle Tom's pool on a black
ant, fishing at a length of no more than 12 feet. Maybe NC mountain trout
acquire different tastes, or see different bugs.
You are right, they can be darned hard to see, but you KNOW where they are,
right?
Tom
p.s. Give me a Green Drake on a 10 4xl
Hook anyday, but ants and beetles
have their days.

"Tom Littleton" wrote in message
...
wayno, regarding terrestrials, notes:
maybe i have'nt been patient enough...maybe i don't see them as well,
and thus don't use them as often as i should... but they just don't ring
my
bell (or the trout's bell)

FWIW, I took a Fishing Creek brown from the head of Uncle Tom's pool on a
black
ant, fishing at a length of no more than 12 feet. Maybe NC mountain trout
acquire different tastes, or see different bugs.
You are right, they can be darned hard to see, but you KNOW where they
are,
right?
Tom
p.s. Give me a Green Drake on a 10 4xl
Hook anyday, but ants and beetles
have their days.

before i let this opportunity slip away, i must say that you might ought
to get your large, gangly ass down to the old north state for a taste of
high country fishing, which will be a little more like hunting than
fishing... having said that, my bet is that you could come up with a match
the hatch proposition for even the most sterile of our waters.

you owe us at least one trip down this way.

yfitons
wayno

I am curious, did they mention anything about the "shadow" cast from
a piece of leader? ....

It's been a long time, Warren, and I seem to be getting more senile
every day, but I don't think so.

If so, do you know the name of the book or article so that I can read it?

I believe Harvey's discussion is in his book _Techniques of Trout
Fishing and Fly Tying_.

Marinaro's, IIRC, is in either _Modern Dry Fy Code_ or _In the Ring of
the Rise_. More likely in the latter, I think.

I'm going out of town for the weekend. When I get back, if no one
else has provided the answer, I'll try to find the references.

vince

It's been a long time, Warren, and I seem to be getting more senile
every day,

Senility is great. You meet a lot of new friends every day,

Lou T

If so, do you know the name of the book or article so that I can read it?

I should have added that those three books are well worth reading in
any case, Warren. Both Harvey and Marinaro made significant
contributions to our knowledge of trout fishing.

vince