TR: Cape Cod

"Tim Carter" wrote in message .. .
"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:02:52 -0600, Willi wrote:



I know, but think a bit about what sort of fish can bend open a heavy
guage, 2/0 sal****er, stainless steel hook, even if it is a Mustad.
My tippet was 14.75 lb. test Daiichi fluoro btw.


A FINE fish, I'm sure. But that hook bent before a 15lb tippet broke. I
would expect a salt hook that size to be stronger than that, but then I
know **** about salt water.

Willi


Leverage probably, plus the better tippet usually tests out a fair bit
stronger than their ratings.

Does anyone know of any studies done on the effects of tying a fly on a
hook? I generally try to hold my hook as I'm winding anything around it,
especially when I'm wrapping tightly with thread. It seems to me that the
hook undergoes quick and repeated bending while I'm tying; very similar as
to what I do when I want to break off wire ribbing. I assume each brand
uses a different alloy and that each might be affected by that particular
type of stress (I can't remember/find what it's called).

Fatigue.

Usually fatigue damage is followed by fracture, rather than yelding:
the hook would have cracked rather than straightened. If you get a
magnifying glass and look at the broken end of your ribbing, you'll
see a slight necking (decrease in diameter) and a jagged fracture.

If you get more interested, the phenomenon of failure from cyclic
variable-amplitude loading and cycles-to-failure is called the
Palmgren-Miner Rule.

Steve

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:26:59 -0400, Peter Charles
wrote:

I know I haven't explained that well but, when Iget a bit
of time, I'm going to run a couple of tests to see if I'm right.
Might take a few pictures to make it worthwhile.

I understand what you're saying. Worse case test you could just put
the hook point in a vise and pull on the eye with a scale to see how
much force it takes to straighten.
--
Charlie...

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:05:36 -0400, Peter Charles
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:02:52 -0600, Willi wrote:



I know, but think a bit about what sort of fish can bend open a heavy
guage, 2/0 sal****er, stainless steel hook, even if it is a Mustad.
My tippet was 14.75 lb. test Daiichi fluoro btw.


A FINE fish, I'm sure. But that hook bent before a 15lb tippet broke. I
would expect a salt hook that size to be stronger than that, but then I
know **** about salt water.

Willi


Leverage probably, plus the better tippet usually tests out a fair bit
stronger than their ratings.

That'd be unfortunate if true. I'd expect just the opposite - that "better
tippet" would test out no stronger than its rating, to assure no surprises
(and attendant sorely ****ed off customers) with the IGFA...

/daytripper (but I could be wrong)

"daytripper" wrote in message
...
..

That'd be unfortunate if true. I'd expect just the opposite - that "better
tippet" would test out no stronger than its rating, to assure no surprises
(and attendant sorely ****ed off customers) with the IGFA...

/daytripper (but I could be wrong)

I'm no expert- but I think if your participating in an IGFA sanctioned
event - you have to use IGFA certified tippit, line, terminal gear, etc. It
is certified to break no more than the rated loading. But, if you wander
down to sportsman whorehouse and by a spool of name brand monofiliment- its
suppost to break at no less than the rated test.--It may be in fact
considerably higher than what is stated. I think thats why you are supposed
to send in a certain length of line/terminal gear with your claim to a
record, so the IGFA can figure out what line class the record would belong
to.

jh

"Stephen L. Cain" wrote in message
om...
"Tim Carter" wrote in message
.. .
"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:02:52 -0600, Willi wrote:



I know, but think a bit about what sort of fish can bend open a
heavy
guage, 2/0 sal****er, stainless steel hook, even if it is a Mustad.
My tippet was 14.75 lb. test Daiichi fluoro btw.


A FINE fish, I'm sure. But that hook bent before a 15lb tippet broke.
I
would expect a salt hook that size to be stronger than that, but then
I
know **** about salt water.

Willi


Leverage probably, plus the better tippet usually tests out a fair bit
stronger than their ratings.

Does anyone know of any studies done on the effects of tying a fly on a
hook? I generally try to hold my hook as I'm winding anything around
it,
especially when I'm wrapping tightly with thread. It seems to me that
the
hook undergoes quick and repeated bending while I'm tying; very similar
as
to what I do when I want to break off wire ribbing. I assume each brand
uses a different alloy and that each might be affected by that
particular
type of stress (I can't remember/find what it's called).

Fatigue.

Usually fatigue damage is followed by fracture, rather than yelding:
the hook would have cracked rather than straightened. If you get a
magnifying glass and look at the broken end of your ribbing, you'll
see a slight necking (decrease in diameter) and a jagged fracture.

Interesting. If a hook experiences fatigue, but only half as much as
required to cause complete fracture, wouldn't the metal would be weakened
and be more susceptible to bending??


If you get more interested, the phenomenon of failure from cyclic
variable-amplitude loading and cycles-to-failure is called the
Palmgren-Miner Rule.

Steve

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:48:06 -0600, "John Hightower"
wrote:


"daytripper" wrote in message
.. .
.

That'd be unfortunate if true. I'd expect just the opposite - that "better
tippet" would test out no stronger than its rating, to assure no surprises
(and attendant sorely ****ed off customers) with the IGFA...

/daytripper (but I could be wrong)

I'm no expert- but I think if your participating in an IGFA sanctioned
event - you have to use IGFA certified tippit, line, terminal gear, etc. It
is certified to break no more than the rated loading. But, if you wander
down to sportsman whorehouse and by a spool of name brand monofiliment- its
suppost to break at no less than the rated test.--It may be in fact
considerably higher than what is stated. I think thats why you are supposed
to send in a certain length of line/terminal gear with your claim to a
record, so the IGFA can figure out what line class the record would belong
to.

jh

exacatacilly, there's nothing on the spool saying it's IGFA certified.
Any tippet test I've ever read about always commented on the rating as
being the minimum and that frequently they tested out much higher. I
just tried a piece of my Daiichi 14.75 and it failed at the perfection
knot once and the hook knot once at around 16 lbs.

Peter

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In article ,
says...
exacatacilly, there's nothing on the spool saying it's IGFA certified.
Any tippet test I've ever read about always commented on the rating as
being the minimum and that frequently they tested out much higher.



If it says X lb. _test_ line, then it has a minimum breaking
strength of X lb. If it says X lb. _class_ line, then it has
a maximum breaking strength of X lb., so if you are looking
to get your name in the record book, you want to go shopping
for the class line.

Kevin

"Tim Carter" wrote in message .. .
"Stephen L. Cain" wrote in message
om...
"Tim Carter" wrote in message
.. .


Fatigue.

Usually fatigue damage is followed by fracture, rather than yelding:
the hook would have cracked rather than straightened. If you get a
magnifying glass and look at the broken end of your ribbing, you'll
see a slight necking (decrease in diameter) and a jagged fracture.

Interesting. If a hook experiences fatigue, but only half as much as
required to cause complete fracture, wouldn't the metal would be weakened
and be more susceptible to bending??


I don't think so. Fatigue damage is conducive to fracture, so if you
induce fatigue via cyclic loading, you are increasing the probability
of fracture and decreasing the probability of yielding. There will be
a weak spot where some microscopic defect concentrates the fatigue
stress, and rather than bend the whole thing, the hook will crack at
the weak point.

I like the idea Peter has below: when the hook gap is fully embedded,
the fish pulls against the shank. When the gap gets exposed, the pull
of the fish puts a bending moment on the hook and thus could
straighten it out.

Steve

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:34:29 -0400, Greg Pavlov
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:02:52 -0600, Willi wrote:


A FINE fish, I'm sure. But that hook bent before a 15lb tippet broke. I
would expect a salt hook that size to be stronger than that, but then I
know **** about salt water.


One of the things I wonder in retrospect is
whether the hook hadn't bent sometime earlier.
I think that it was sufficiently closed to
hold a fish for quite a while, depending on
luck and how it was hooked, but sooner or later
it was likely to pull out. I had a striped
bass open a hook on me as well back when I
was fishing for them with spinning gear and
jigs: I ended up with a wire with a 90 degree
bend. Peter's was quite a bit less than that.
But there is no question that Peter had a very
nice fish on and that it ran a long way: he
was reeling in for a long time when it was all
over.


That was a fairly fresh fly, it hadn't hit anything, and nothing had
bit on it, so it should've been good. It's about 45 degrees open -- I
figure that the hook wasn't set far down in its jaw. If a hook has a
good "bite", it shouldn't bend.



Peter

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On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:30:08 -0500, Kevin Vang
wrote:

In article ,
says...
exacatacilly, there's nothing on the spool saying it's IGFA certified.
Any tippet test I've ever read about always commented on the rating as
being the minimum and that frequently they tested out much higher.



If it says X lb. _test_ line, then it has a minimum breaking
strength of X lb. If it says X lb. _class_ line, then it has
a maximum breaking strength of X lb., so if you are looking
to get your name in the record book, you want to go shopping
for the class line.

Kevin

And moreover, you'd want the weakest link at terminal rather than at
station. In sal****er (and certainly, fresh-, albeit to a lesser
extent), it will get real expensive, real quick if the line-to-backing,
or the arbor knot is weak link in the rig...

From what I've read of the thread, Peter did well, had a blast doing it,
and if something's gotta give, the best thing that could, did.

TC,
R