Question about loop leaders?

Stev writes:

I take it that you found these satisfactory but not at all essential?

I look upon it as just another gadget. As far as gadgets go, I think the
leader link has it beat all to hell. I'll stick with the nail knot and a
perfection loop.

On 15 Oct 2004 20:55:54 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse)
wrote:

Stev writes:

I take it that you found these satisfactory but not at all essential?

I look upon it as just another gadget. As far as gadgets go, I think the
leader link has it beat all to hell. I'll stick with the nail knot and a
perfection loop.



Heavy mono and loops or braided loops with the fly line tip pushed
into the overlapped section and the nail knotted to the fly line
(never trust the heat shrink tube). I use one nail knot right at the
end of the braid for trout and two nail knots for heavier fish.

If a loop system, on the end of a spey line, can turn over a 15' mono
leader and big fly, when cast into the wind, then the hinge theory is
truly BS. It does and it is.



Peter

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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:16:46 -0400, Peter Charles
wrote:

On 15 Oct 2004 20:55:54 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse)
wrote:

Stev writes:

I take it that you found these satisfactory but not at all essential?

I look upon it as just another gadget. As far as gadgets go, I think the
leader link has it beat all to hell. I'll stick with the nail knot and a
perfection loop.



Heavy mono and loops or braided loops with the fly line tip pushed
into the overlapped section and the nail knotted to the fly line
(never trust the heat shrink tube). I use one nail knot right at the
end of the braid for trout and two nail knots for heavier fish.

If a loop system, on the end of a spey line, can turn over a 15' mono
leader and big fly, when cast into the wind, then the hinge theory is
truly BS. It does and it is.

Um, I'm not defending the "hinge theory," but assuming it has some
merit, it would be easier to present a larger (and heavier) fly...

TC,
R



Peter

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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 15:48:53 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:16:46 -0400, Peter Charles
wrote:

On 15 Oct 2004 20:55:54 GMT, irate (Dave LaCourse)
wrote:

Stev writes:

I take it that you found these satisfactory but not at all essential?

I look upon it as just another gadget. As far as gadgets go, I think the
leader link has it beat all to hell. I'll stick with the nail knot and a
perfection loop.



Heavy mono and loops or braided loops with the fly line tip pushed
into the overlapped section and the nail knotted to the fly line
(never trust the heat shrink tube). I use one nail knot right at the
end of the braid for trout and two nail knots for heavier fish.

If a loop system, on the end of a spey line, can turn over a 15' mono
leader and big fly, when cast into the wind, then the hinge theory is
truly BS. It does and it is.

Um, I'm not defending the "hinge theory," but assuming it has some
merit, it would be easier to present a larger (and heavier) fly...


Larger is not always heavier -- low water salmon hooks are quite light
for their size. A full dressed fly on them is quite wind resistant
without a lot of mass. Anyway, yesterday while practicing, I was
casting a "fluffy" (egg yarn on the end of the tippet) into a stiff
wind and it turned over OK.

Peter

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"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 15:48:53 GMT, wrote:


Heavy mono and loops or braided loops with the fly line tip pushed
into the overlapped section and the nail knotted to the fly line
(never trust the heat shrink tube). I use one nail knot right at the
end of the braid for trout and two nail knots for heavier fish.

If a loop system, on the end of a spey line, can turn over a 15' mono
leader and big fly, when cast into the wind, then the hinge theory is
truly BS. It does and it is.

Um, I'm not defending the "hinge theory," but assuming it has some
merit, it would be easier to present a larger (and heavier) fly...


Larger is not always heavier -- low water salmon hooks are quite light
for their size. A full dressed fly on them is quite wind resistant
without a lot of mass. Anyway, yesterday while practicing, I was
casting a "fluffy" (egg yarn on the end of the tippet) into a stiff
wind and it turned over OK.

Hmm, a corollary to rejecting the Hinge Theory then might be to reject the
philosophy of not jumping tippet weights too drastically, then. The Hinge
Theory (as I recently gathered) isn't saying that the two loops will cause a
hinge where they interact (that is BS, imho), but its saying that if you
don't seat your line deeply enough into the base of the loop, that few
centimeters of flimsy material will make a 360-degree hinge and screw up
your casts.

The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?

--riverman

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:26:23 +0100, "riverman"
wrote:



Hmm, a corollary to rejecting the Hinge Theory then might be to reject the
philosophy of not jumping tippet weights too drastically, then. The Hinge
Theory (as I recently gathered) isn't saying that the two loops will cause a
hinge where they interact (that is BS, imho), but its saying that if you
don't seat your line deeply enough into the base of the loop, that few
centimeters of flimsy material will make a 360-degree hinge and screw up
your casts.

The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?

--riverman


Any radical change will cause some sort of hinging -- whether or not
the hinge will cause a problem is another matter. My spey line
leaders are actually quite light, starting with 20 lb., then 15 lb.
down to 10 lb. (Maxima Ultragreen). The usual formula is 60%, 20%,
20%. Some anglers are just using a single piece of very long, light
mono -- not an approach I'd use.

Keep in mind that your leader/fly has some mass, some aerodynamic
drag, and some stiffness. A short leader/small fly won't cause a
poorly assembled braided loop to hinge as it doesn't take much energy
to turn over. Try the same thing with a 15' spey leader and fly, and
watch the hinge. Still, the fly gets out there so it's more form than
function. The biggest worry with a long leader, is that the whole
affair will run out of gas when fired into the wind. A poor loop will
do that to you since it can't transfer the energy to the long leader.
But to do that, the braided loop would have to be poorly fitted,
leaving a long, limp section and the fly line inserted into only an
inch or so. If there's a 1/4" or so braid without fly line, it won't
matter, but a couple of inches would.

Your test is a good one. I worry more about energy transfer than
hinging so well assembled loops make the difference.

Peter

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riverman wrote:



The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?


For deep/heavy water nymphing, I think that dropping down a number of
sizes, along with the hinging effect, has some real advantages. If you
go from a short heavier leader butt straight to a 6 to 10 foot piece of
tippet, you are going to be able to sink your fly much easier and there
will be less resistance from the current. This will allow you to use
less weight, will make for a more drag free drift and will give you
better contact with the fly.

Willi

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:05:55 -0600, Willi & Sue
wrote:

riverman wrote:



The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?


For deep/heavy water nymphing, I think that dropping down a number of
sizes, along with the hinging effect, has some real advantages. If you
go from a short heavier leader butt straight to a 6 to 10 foot piece of
tippet, you are going to be able to sink your fly much easier and there
will be less resistance from the current. This will allow you to use
less weight, will make for a more drag free drift and will give you
better contact with the fly.

Willi



Quite agree, I use dramatic size differences in nymphing as well --
however I see this as a special case. Bobbers, weighted flies, and/or
splitshot change the dynamics so leader construction isn't of the same
concern.

Peter

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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:05:55 -0600, Willi & Sue
wrote:

riverman wrote:



The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?


For deep/heavy water nymphing, I think that dropping down a number of
sizes, along with the hinging effect, has some real advantages. If you
go from a short heavier leader butt straight to a 6 to 10 foot piece of
tippet, you are going to be able to sink your fly much easier and there
will be less resistance from the current. This will allow you to use
less weight, will make for a more drag free drift and will give you
better contact with the fly.

Willi



Quite agree, I use dramatic size differences in nymphing as well --
however I see this as a special case. Bobbers, weighted flies, and/or
splitshot change the dynamics so leader construction isn't of the same
concern.

Peter

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Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:05:55 -0600, Willi & Sue
wrote:

riverman wrote:



The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?


For deep/heavy water nymphing, I think that dropping down a number of
sizes, along with the hinging effect, has some real advantages. If you
go from a short heavier leader butt straight to a 6 to 10 foot piece of
tippet, you are going to be able to sink your fly much easier and there
will be less resistance from the current. This will allow you to use
less weight, will make for a more drag free drift and will give you
better contact with the fly.

Willi



Quite agree, I use dramatic size differences in nymphing as well --
however I see this as a special case. Bobbers, weighted flies, and/or
splitshot change the dynamics so leader construction isn't of the same
concern.

Peter

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