Its looking grim

Scott opines:

Hopefully nonoffensively, I can point out that when Bush ran, he had a
record of failed businesses, a drunk driving arrest or two, a rich family
with heavy Saudi ties, family privilege that helped him avoid Vietnam by
almost meeting a National Guard commitment, no foreign policy experience,
and his biggest qualification was that he governed a state constitutionally
headed by a hands-off governor. Then on top of all that, I'll point out
that about half the population is largely unimpressed by his performance as
President and CIC, he deliberately trumped up faulty intelligence that
brought us to a war we're having problems finishing, he ignored
intelligence that might have prevented the deaths of 3,000 citizens, and he
ran up a record deficit (even without the two wars factored in) and put the
money into his buddys' collective pockets.

IMO, which is no more or less valid than YO, this is a train wreck that is
happening right now.


Then why didn't Gore win in 2000? He was the vp of a "successfull"
administration. Why didn't he walk away with the election?

The same holds true for this election. If Bush was so bad, so hated, so
disrespected, so dumb, so incompetent, how's come the VN hero didn't win? And
don';t tell me it's because of the "religious right". Remember, you don't have
to be religious or even *have* a religion to be moral. *I expected Kerry to
win, and to win handily*. When I awoke Wednesday morning, I was completely
surprised to see how well Bush did with a good majority of the electoral votes,
and a whopping 3.5 million more in the popular vote. He didn't beat Kerry; he
kicked the mush out of him.

Above all, I am glad we will not have an ambulance chaser a heartbeat away from
the presidency. That was a terrible choice the DNC/Kerry made. Edwards was
more of a hindrance than an asset. (On a sadder note: Just heard that Mrs.
Edwards has breast cancer. Terrible news. If only someday we can beat all
cancer.)

"Dave LaCourse" wrote

Remember, you don't have
to be religious or even *have* a religion to be moral.

I think one fear many of us have for this country is the fact that it's also
well proven that "being religious" and having a "religion" don't always lead
to being moral.

A huge majority of history's nastiest moments resulted from men honestly
believing "god is on our side" A lot more have resulted from those
pretending true faith using "religion" to promote hate and self interest.

Our country has separated church and state for good, history proven,
reasons. I'd suggest that it's not time to forget those reasons, it's time
to really remember them.




Larry
(who thinks of himself as deeply spiritual and ethical, but finds any "true
believer" very scary ... )

Larry L. writes:

Our country has separated church and state for good, history proven,
reasons. I'd suggest that it's not time to forget those reasons, it's time
to really remember them.



Uhhhhh, who said I favor a state religion? I don't. I am all for separation
of church and state. That was not what I was speaking of. You do not need to
be a Right Wing Religious Zealot to have morals. And, yes, some RWRZ have low
or no morals. That is not what I was speaking of. I have many friends who are
not church goers yet their morals are very high and they didn't vote for Kerry.


What are you afraid of, btw?

"Dave LaCourse" wrote


Uhhhhh, who said I favor a state religion? I don't.


Yeah, I knew I wasn't "on-thread" Your sentence caught my eye at just the
right minute to get me to respond ... my kid and I have been discussing the
difference between religious teachings and morality ... or more accurately
false religious teachings and morality



What are you afraid of, btw?


...specifically pertaining to this election, the reduction of separation
of church and state as political payback ... i.e. having my "religious
rights" threatened by the "religious Right"

Larry L. writes:


What are you afraid of, btw?


...specifically pertaining to this election, the reduction of separation
of church and state as political payback ... i.e. having my "religious
rights" threatened by the "religious Right"

The sky might fall too. d;o)
The president doesn't make the law, and only the people can add to the
Constitution, so the separation of Church and State clause will remain
throughout your and my lifetimes.

Dave LaCourse wrote:

The president doesn't make the law, and only the people can add to the
Constitution, so the separation of Church and State clause will remain
throughout your and my lifetimes.

Over the past few days, I've heard three different conservative
evangelical Christians on radio talk shows maintain (in all seriousness,
apparently) that the wording of First Amendment DOES NOT specifically
prescribe a separation of church and state.

So if a President sharing this interpretation were to appoint three or
four Supreme Court justices with the same views.....

JR

John Russell writes:

Over the past few days, I've heard three different conservative
evangelical Christians on radio talk shows maintain (in all seriousness,
apparently) that the wording of First Amendment DOES NOT specifically
prescribe a separation of church and state.

So if a President sharing this interpretation were to appoint three or
four Supreme Court justices with the same views.....

In the first place, I don't think Bush would go for that. And secondly, the
sky will fall before that happens.

Where are you now?

"JR" wrote

Over the past few days, I've heard three different conservative
evangelical Christians on radio talk shows maintain

That stuff will rot your brain JR, careful


Are you in Bend, Oregon .... if not how did I get that idea?

if so, I keep maning to get up there and fish those likes .... Crane Prairie
sp?) and Hosmer? and I think you have a spring crik or two near there

"JR" wrote in message
.. .
Dave LaCourse wrote:

The president doesn't make the law, and only the people can add to the
Constitution, so the separation of Church and State clause will remain
throughout your and my lifetimes.

Over the past few days, I've heard three different conservative
evangelical Christians on radio talk shows maintain (in all seriousness,
apparently) that the wording of First Amendment DOES NOT specifically
prescribe a separation of church and state.


They were right. It doesn't. You should read it some time.

Mainstream Protestantism.....in it's multifarious variations....has been the
de facto official religion of the United States since before the Bill of
Rights came into being, and it still is. You ever look at a piece of U.S.
currency?.....the part where it says, "In God We Trust?.......well, you can
bet your ass that ain't Yahweh, Allah, Siva, some born again Virgin, or
Quetzalcoatl.

As a matter of fact, an enterprising scholar could, with a minimum of
effort, find some very interesting material on the treatment meted out to
followers of any of the above at various times in our great nation's
history.

The fact that the current pig in chief has sold out that very mainstream
Protestant consitiuency for the transient votes of the even more easily
manipulated lunatic fringe should be viewed as a probably short term
aberration. He certainly isn't the first to do so.....any more than he is
the first to successfully capitalize on the stupidity of the social,
economic, political, and philosophical lunatic fringes. ****, he isn't even
the first to convince tens of millions that he has some sort of religious
leanings himself. After all, the American public IS easy to fool. Hell,
tens of millions of them......bloodthirsty swine that they are.......have
managed to convince themselves that THEY have some sort of religious
leanings.......no, it's TRUE!

That said, Tom Gibson was right......probably. After all, it can't happen
here, right?

Wolfgang
ya gotta laugh, ainna?

"JR" wrote in message
.. .
Dave LaCourse wrote:

The president doesn't make the law, and only the people can add to the
Constitution, so the separation of Church and State clause will remain
throughout your and my lifetimes.

Over the past few days, I've heard three different conservative
evangelical Christians on radio talk shows maintain (in all seriousness,
apparently) that the wording of First Amendment DOES NOT specifically
prescribe a separation of church and state.


They were right. It doesn't. You should read it some time.

Mainstream Protestantism.....in it's multifarious variations....has been the
de facto official religion of the United States since before the Bill of
Rights came into being, and it still is. You ever look at a piece of U.S.
currency?.....the part where it says, "In God We Trust?.......well, you can
bet your ass that ain't Yahweh, Allah, Siva, some born again Virgin, or
Quetzalcoatl.

As a matter of fact, an enterprising scholar could, with a minimum of
effort, find some very interesting material on the treatment meted out to
followers of any of the above at various times in our great nation's
history.

The fact that the current pig in chief has sold out that very mainstream
Protestant consitiuency for the transient votes of the even more easily
manipulated lunatic fringe should be viewed as a probably short term
aberration. He certainly isn't the first to do so.....any more than he is
the first to successfully capitalize on the stupidity of the social,
economic, political, and philosophical lunatic fringes. ****, he isn't even
the first to convince tens of millions that he has some sort of religious
leanings himself. After all, the American public IS easy to fool. Hell,
tens of millions of them......bloodthirsty swine that they are.......have
managed to convince themselves that THEY have some sort of religious
leanings.......no, it's TRUE!

That said, Tom Gibson was right......probably. After all, it can't happen
here, right?

Wolfgang
ya gotta laugh, ainna?