How Much Responsibility...

"Kevin Vang" wrote

My favorites are the signs that say "No Trespassing
Without Permission."



I know LOTS of people that will let reasonable people that politely ask use
their land .... but call the Sheriff in an instant if you don't ask ... see
my other reply

my neighbor's kid ( 14, I think ) shot a pheasant last week that landed
across the fence on my side .... the boy came to my door, gun action open
and asked, "Larry, I shot a pheasant that flew onto your land, may I go get
it?" Then, as an after thought, " I'll leave my gun here, if you want."

There would be a LOT less No Trespasing signs in the world if more people
were taught what Miles has been taught. My answer? "Nah, take your gun
and hunt the place while you are out there, .... have fun..... if you have
trouble finding the bird, let me know and I'll take Suzy out there to find
it."

"Kevin Vang" wrote

My favorites are the signs that say "No Trespassing
Without Permission."



I know LOTS of people that will let reasonable people that politely ask use
their land .... but call the Sheriff in an instant if you don't ask ... see
my other reply

my neighbor's kid ( 14, I think ) shot a pheasant last week that landed
across the fence on my side .... the boy came to my door, gun action open
and asked, "Larry, I shot a pheasant that flew onto your land, may I go get
it?" Then, as an after thought, " I'll leave my gun here, if you want."

There would be a LOT less No Trespasing signs in the world if more people
were taught what Miles has been taught. My answer? "Nah, take your gun
and hunt the place while you are out there, .... have fun..... if you have
trouble finding the bird, let me know and I'll take Suzy out there to find
it."

"Bob Weinberger" wrote in message
news:vbJud.6190$xa6.2004@trnddc09...

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...
snip

Odd, isn't it, that the more land one has the more jealously one tends
to
guard
it?
snip

Wolfgang

While that axiom is largely true in relatively populated areas, and for
people who have a largely urban or suburban background but have recently
acquired large tracts of rural land, it is often not the case with those
who
have long tenure working the land in relatively unpopulated areas. I am
familiar with many landowners of large tracts (500 -1000+ac.), who, as
long
as public visitors are respectful of the land and the owners, will allow
the
public to recreate on their land. Often all that is required is asking
permission, letting the owner know when you are on the property, and
finding
out if there are any areas/activities/conditions/times that the owner
wants
you to avoid or take special care with. This landowner attitude is
certainly far from universal, and the number holding it seems to be
shrinking all the time, but it is still fairly common. However, almost
invariably when these same lands are acquired by someone without a rural
background, the lands are locked up tighter than a drum. Also owners of
20-160ac. seem to guard their lands much more jealously than many of the
long term owners of large properties.

Another problem trespass in the west is that the combination of large
tracts of public lands (often with unmarked boundaries - once you get away
from roads), many areas with poor or totally absent surveys, and - in flat
featureless areas- no good way (short of GPS) to ascertain one's exact
location, determining ( in the absence of clearly marked boundaries)
whether
one has trespassed is often more than mildly problematic.

In Oregon, the law is structured such that, if the land is enclosed
(fenced), or cultivated, or marked with signs or red paint, one should
assume that it is private land in the absence of firm knowledge to the
contrary. However, because of the factors noted in the above paragraph,
even many landowners are often not exactly clear of the precise location
of
their boundaries. I have seen numerous cases where the private landowners
have fenced in lands that were open to the public (publicly owned lands or
other private lands where public use was allowed) or posted "No
Trespassing" signs on such lands. While some of this is done by those who
had full knowledge that the land was open to the public, and were simply
doing it to keep others from using adjacent land that they did not own,
many
simply don't know the exact location of their boundaries.

I can find nothing to argue about in any of that. That said........


I'm not sure that length of tenure on the land has any real predictive value
where access is concerned. It may indeed be true that long term tenants are
more liberal than the nouveau landed (and I suspect that it is) but I'd like
to see some hard figures before accepting it as fact.

I know of some major (if not exactly typical) exceptions to the premise that
rural owners are more likely to liberal about public access than urban or
suburban. Major corporations (hardly rural residents by any reasonable
definition) own vast tracts of land in parts of the upper Great Lakes
states. I'm talking about concerns like UP Power and some of the paper
companies. By and large, they don't much give a **** about who enters their
land or for what reason........so long as the recreational users don't
destroy the resource before they get to do it themselves.

The problem of determining whether or not one is trespassing is, I think, no
less great here than it is in the west. While the scale of the land as a
whole, as well as individual holdings, is somewhat different, one stand of
alders looks pretty much like any other and the line passing through some of
them is as invisible as is that in a grove of aspens or Pseudotsuga
menziesii.

I'm not sure what the law says here, but I believe it is safe to assume that
any piece of fenced land ANYWHERE is private or otherwise restricted. The
trick......sometimes......is to determine which side of the fence one is on.
Hm.......but then, life its own self is a lot like that too, ainna?


Many land owners, as well as their more indigent counterparts, are often not
exactly clear about the precise locations of their asses......let alone
"real" estate or its boundaries.

I once had an......um......."animated discussion".....with a land owner near
Amherst, WI, who insisted that I was trespassing on his land while wading in
a small stream that crossed through it. This was an individual who had, on
a number of occasions in the past, strung barbed wire across the stream
along what he was pleased to think was his property line. The wire was
prone to disappear about as frequently and as quickly as it appeared. On
the day in question, he insisted that if I did not vacate the premises
immediately he was going the call the sheriff and have me arrested for
trespassing. I told him that I'd been fishing steadily for a couple of
hours and was about ready for a break. I sat on a rock in mid-stream, fired
up a cigarette, and told him to go make his call.......I would wait. We
both knew that we both knew the law. He left.......I finished my
cigarette......and went on about my business.

Wolfgang

"Bob Weinberger" wrote in message
news:vbJud.6190$xa6.2004@trnddc09...

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...
snip

Odd, isn't it, that the more land one has the more jealously one tends
to
guard
it?
snip

Wolfgang

While that axiom is largely true in relatively populated areas, and for
people who have a largely urban or suburban background but have recently
acquired large tracts of rural land, it is often not the case with those
who
have long tenure working the land in relatively unpopulated areas. I am
familiar with many landowners of large tracts (500 -1000+ac.), who, as
long
as public visitors are respectful of the land and the owners, will allow
the
public to recreate on their land. Often all that is required is asking
permission, letting the owner know when you are on the property, and
finding
out if there are any areas/activities/conditions/times that the owner
wants
you to avoid or take special care with. This landowner attitude is
certainly far from universal, and the number holding it seems to be
shrinking all the time, but it is still fairly common. However, almost
invariably when these same lands are acquired by someone without a rural
background, the lands are locked up tighter than a drum. Also owners of
20-160ac. seem to guard their lands much more jealously than many of the
long term owners of large properties.

Another problem trespass in the west is that the combination of large
tracts of public lands (often with unmarked boundaries - once you get away
from roads), many areas with poor or totally absent surveys, and - in flat
featureless areas- no good way (short of GPS) to ascertain one's exact
location, determining ( in the absence of clearly marked boundaries)
whether
one has trespassed is often more than mildly problematic.

In Oregon, the law is structured such that, if the land is enclosed
(fenced), or cultivated, or marked with signs or red paint, one should
assume that it is private land in the absence of firm knowledge to the
contrary. However, because of the factors noted in the above paragraph,
even many landowners are often not exactly clear of the precise location
of
their boundaries. I have seen numerous cases where the private landowners
have fenced in lands that were open to the public (publicly owned lands or
other private lands where public use was allowed) or posted "No
Trespassing" signs on such lands. While some of this is done by those who
had full knowledge that the land was open to the public, and were simply
doing it to keep others from using adjacent land that they did not own,
many
simply don't know the exact location of their boundaries.

I can find nothing to argue about in any of that. That said........


I'm not sure that length of tenure on the land has any real predictive value
where access is concerned. It may indeed be true that long term tenants are
more liberal than the nouveau landed (and I suspect that it is) but I'd like
to see some hard figures before accepting it as fact.

I know of some major (if not exactly typical) exceptions to the premise that
rural owners are more likely to liberal about public access than urban or
suburban. Major corporations (hardly rural residents by any reasonable
definition) own vast tracts of land in parts of the upper Great Lakes
states. I'm talking about concerns like UP Power and some of the paper
companies. By and large, they don't much give a **** about who enters their
land or for what reason........so long as the recreational users don't
destroy the resource before they get to do it themselves.

The problem of determining whether or not one is trespassing is, I think, no
less great here than it is in the west. While the scale of the land as a
whole, as well as individual holdings, is somewhat different, one stand of
alders looks pretty much like any other and the line passing through some of
them is as invisible as is that in a grove of aspens or Pseudotsuga
menziesii.

I'm not sure what the law says here, but I believe it is safe to assume that
any piece of fenced land ANYWHERE is private or otherwise restricted. The
trick......sometimes......is to determine which side of the fence one is on.
Hm.......but then, life its own self is a lot like that too, ainna?


Many land owners, as well as their more indigent counterparts, are often not
exactly clear about the precise locations of their asses......let alone
"real" estate or its boundaries.

I once had an......um......."animated discussion".....with a land owner near
Amherst, WI, who insisted that I was trespassing on his land while wading in
a small stream that crossed through it. This was an individual who had, on
a number of occasions in the past, strung barbed wire across the stream
along what he was pleased to think was his property line. The wire was
prone to disappear about as frequently and as quickly as it appeared. On
the day in question, he insisted that if I did not vacate the premises
immediately he was going the call the sheriff and have me arrested for
trespassing. I told him that I'd been fishing steadily for a couple of
hours and was about ready for a break. I sat on a rock in mid-stream, fired
up a cigarette, and told him to go make his call.......I would wait. We
both knew that we both knew the law. He left.......I finished my
cigarette......and went on about my business.

Wolfgang

"Lazarus Cooke" wrote in message
om...

...I was fishing on the Itchen last week...The fact
that this water is private seems okay to me, because the alternative is
horrible...

One should not be in a hurry to believe everything one hears about
Ishpeming.

Wolfgang
who has been there........well, or near it, anyway.

"Lazarus Cooke" wrote in message
om...

...I was fishing on the Itchen last week...The fact
that this water is private seems okay to me, because the alternative is
horrible...

One should not be in a hurry to believe everything one hears about
Ishpeming.

Wolfgang
who has been there........well, or near it, anyway.

Odd, that. Based on what has appeared here in the past few weeks, it is
difficult to imagine how anyone could give credence to the notion that there
is any private land at all in Colorado.

I can personally vouch for the fact that my late father-in-law owned
almost an entire acre on the fringe of Estes Park, some years ago.

Unfortunately, for me at least, no water flowed through it, and damn
little even fell on it.

vince

Odd, that. Based on what has appeared here in the past few weeks, it is
difficult to imagine how anyone could give credence to the notion that there
is any private land at all in Colorado.

I can personally vouch for the fact that my late father-in-law owned
almost an entire acre on the fringe of Estes Park, some years ago.

Unfortunately, for me at least, no water flowed through it, and damn
little even fell on it.

vince

In Texas he probably would have been shot by the landowner. 98% of the state is
privately owned.

Big Dale

Big Dale, do you know about the 'Texas Three-Kick System?"

vince

In Texas he probably would have been shot by the landowner. 98% of the state is
privately owned.

Big Dale

Big Dale, do you know about the 'Texas Three-Kick System?"

vince