Tappered leaders and tippet material

Danl wrote:

//ShowMyIgnorance = 1

I did not know that. Here I've sat... skinny, dumb, and happy....resting
easy in the knowledge that somehow the tapered leaders that I buy are
designed and manufactured to be more or less perzactly the correct taper and
length to turn over a dry fly properly after one adds a couple of feet of
tippet (allowing for some sensible calculation of tippet size vs. fly size).
Myron, you're upsetting my world view vis-a-vis flyfishing tackle. Please
'splain how one finds said sweet spot.

Damnit...cain't trust nothin no more.....

//ShowMyIgnorance = ......aw hell, let's just leave it on.......

Tapered leaders are not made ready to tie on tippet. They have a section
of level (i.e., nontapered) mono that is meant to be the "tippet." If
you have, say, a new 3x tapered leader, you could tie on a tippet of 5x
and it would perform pretty well. If you have a new 5x leader and you
tie on more 5x, that wouldn't work as well because you'd have a "double"
length of tippet.

For most troutfishing, I usually either buy 7.5-foot 3x leaders and add
5x tippet, or 9-foot 5x leaders and use up the existing 5x end before
tying on more tippet. For deep nymphing I cut the leader way back and
use a very long tippet, to reduce drag.

I carry a spool of 3x (and sometimes 1x) so I can rebuild the leader
above the tippet.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a particularly
powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x leader is a bit
long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've lost about 18
inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that has been tuned:
my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns over sweetly, and
I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am aiming, even at
long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

Wolfgang

Just to add a bit of confusion to all this I quite like it if my leader
is a little bit longer than is ideal for 'perfect' casting. Most of my
fishing is dry fly upstream in very clear water. The one thing that
will put fish off is the stream draggiing the leader, and pulling the
fly unnaturally across the surface of the water. Although I can't see
it, the fish definitely can.

So it suits me if the last few feet of the tippet land in a bit of a
zig-zag, which is what happens if the tippet is a wee bit long, and the
fly floats undragged for thirty seconds or so while the tangle
straightens out.

So I do as riverman suggests, and tie on a couple of feet of leader.
(Incidentally, if I'm fishing 3lb breaking strain tippet, which I often
do, I buy a leader tapered to 4 lb.)

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:33:10 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:


Just to add a bit of confusion to all this I quite like it if my leader
is a little bit longer than is ideal for 'perfect' casting. Most of my
fishing is dry fly upstream in very clear water. The one thing that
will put fish off is the stream draggiing the leader, and pulling the
fly unnaturally across the surface of the water. Although I can't see
it, the fish definitely can.

So it suits me if the last few feet of the tippet land in a bit of a
zig-zag, which is what happens if the tippet is a wee bit long, and the
fly floats undragged for thirty seconds or so while the tangle
straightens out.

So I do as riverman suggests, and tie on a couple of feet of leader.
(Incidentally, if I'm fishing 3lb breaking strain tippet, which I often
do, I buy a leader tapered to 4 lb.)

Lazarus


and the winna is . . . .

This is the key, not perfect turnover but perfect drift. I add tippet
to every 9' factory leaer I now buy, precisely because I want a crappy
turnover of the last few feet. I want it to land with a bunch of
squiggles. I now buy 9' 5X leaders and tie 3' of 7X tippet just so as
to screw up the tunrover of the last few feet.

This doesn't work everywhere as I can recall a situation where my son
scored a brookie that I had been working hard, when he cast to it
using his short, thick leader (he's lazy when it comes to refreshing
tippet) while I had soldiered on and failed with my long
leader/tippet. But that's the exception, not the rule.

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a
particularly powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x
leader is a bit long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've
lost about 18 inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that
has been tuned: my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns
over sweetly, and I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am
aiming, even at long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.


I'm not sure I have either g. The moment I hit send, I thought "did I say
12 foot?" I use 9 foot leaders, usually 4x or 5x trout tapers.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that clean
leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be putting
off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot depends on what
thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader with a foot or so of
original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet, I'll fish it until the
tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x leader with a 5x tippet, I'll
change tippet (or tie on another section of 5x or 6x) when it gets down to
about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet: I'll
start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or I'll start
with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a
particularly powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x
leader is a bit long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've
lost about 18 inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that
has been tuned: my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns
over sweetly, and I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am
aiming, even at long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.


I'm not sure I have either g. The moment I hit send, I thought "did I say
12 foot?" I use 9 foot leaders, usually 4x or 5x trout tapers.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that clean
leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be putting
off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot depends on what
thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader with a foot or so of
original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet, I'll fish it until the
tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x leader with a 5x tippet, I'll
change tippet (or tie on another section of 5x or 6x) when it gets down to
about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet: I'll
start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or I'll start
with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet:
I'll start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or
I'll start with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman

http://www.activeangler.com/articles...r/tippets2.asp

Typical
Tippet Diameters

Tippet
Diameter

0x .011"
1x .010"
2x .009"
3x .008"
4x .007"
5x .006"
6x .005"
7x .004"
8x .003"



Tapered Leader
Recipe
(12', 5x for trout)

Length
Diameter

36" .021"
24" .019"
16" .017"
12" .015"
7" .013"
7" .011"
7" .009"
7" .008"
28" .006"



Apparently, Orvis thinks so.

Mark

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that
clean leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be
putting off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot
depends on what thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader
with a foot or so of original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet,
I'll fish it until the tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x
leader with a 5x tippet, I'll change tippet (or tie on another section of
5x or 6x) when it gets down to about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start
experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet:
I'll start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or
I'll start with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

I don't believe there is any meaningful standard. I think your second
paragraph above goes to the heart of the matter. You experiment until you
find an arrangement you find satisfactory. In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless. As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.
The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

I carry tippet in four sizes; 2, 3, 5, and 8 pound test. I don't know what
the "x" designation for these is......easy enough to find out if one is
interested, I suppose. When setting up with the butt end of a new knotless
leader I cut it about where the 5 pound Maxima more or less matches the
diameter and tie in a foot or so. I follow that with 18-24 inches of the
three pound and then 30-40 inches of the two pound. Voila. I end up with
something on the order of ten to thirteen feet of leader......suitable for
most of what I do.

There can be no doubt that carefully determined leader setups will work
better in some situations than others, but I've found that slight (and
easily managed....with practice) adjustments to casting strokes will, in
most situations, compensate quite nicely.

In short, and is applicable to most of the controversial issues in fly
fishing, it ain't the fiddlestick that makes the music......it's the
fiddler.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang wrote:

In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless.

That's absurd. ALL monofilament is produced by extrusion, including the
two feet of tippet you're wasting and the other two feet you're
replacing it with. The "stresses" are the same.

BTW, please don't throw that two feet of wasted tippet onto the ground.

As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.

Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?

The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Wolfgang wrote:

In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless.

That's absurd. ALL monofilament is produced by extrusion, including the
two feet of tippet you're wasting and the other two feet you're
replacing it with. The "stresses" are the same.

BTW, please don't throw that two feet of wasted tippet onto the ground.

As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.

Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?

The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.