Question About Tippet

Scott Seidman wrote in
. 1.4:

Charles Crolley wrote in
:

Last week, I broke off my 7x tippet at least 4 times on strikes. It
broke anywhere from just below the knot joining it to the leader, at
the hook, and other places in between. This happened with two
different spools and types (Orvis and Frog Hair) 7x. None of the
tippet is old (according to the expiration dates, at least). The
last few times I broke off, I replaced the entire tippet - but it
still broke off. (Oddly enough, I don't break off once the hook is
set.)



I've had similar problems with Frog Hair in the past. I never tracked
it down to my knots, age, improper storage, or the product itself. I
stopped using it.

I do know that the company sent me a stack of samples of their
leaders, and they came with instructions for tying a knot I don't
usually use--I think it might be the uniknot. I can't tell you why
they do this.

Scott


By way of follow up, here's the original thread.
http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.outdoors.fishing.fly/browse_frm/thread/60c1ee65a4
32c594/4a2fad3a2b6bd82a?q=frog+hair+author:seidman&rnum=1 &hl=en#
4a2fad3a2b6bd82a

Charles Crolley wrote:
I took this sport up in October of last year, so I'm still a novice -
pardon me if this is a stupid question,

If you look back at past threads there is one on small tippets, people
fly fishing 20+ years can't agree on it.


Last week, I broke off my 7x tippet at least 4 times on strikes. It
broke anywhere from just below the knot joining it to the leader, at
the hook, and other places in between. This happened with two
different spools and types (Orvis and Frog Hair) 7x. None of the
tippet is old (according to the expiration dates, at least). The last
few times I broke off, I replaced the entire tippet - but it still
broke off. (Oddly enough, I don't break off once the hook is set.)

I haven't had the same problem with 6x, which leads me to believe I'm
doing something wrong. I'm still catching fish, but would prefer for
environmental/stealth reasons to go with the lighter tippet. I'm
careful in handling the tippet, and am using a surgeon's knot to
attach it to my leader.

Can anyone hazard a guess as to the flaw in my technique that might be
causing me to break off with the 7x?

I prefer Frog Hair to Orvis tippet tho I perceive the Orvis to be a
little stronger, i think it has less *stretch* than the Frog Hair.

7x tippet is fine and very easy to bust off. Without seeing you break
it, how *hard* are you setting the hook? Are you tugging to set it or
are you just kind of raising the rod and tightening the line? Tugging
too hard, especially with a fast action rod and a reel with the drag
set too tight is a prescription for popping the tippet.

What position are you placing the rod when trying to play the fish?
Overhead in the traditional "Orvis" pose or otherwise straight up tends
to put more pressure then playing the rod off to the side.

How is the drag on your reel set? If there is a lot of start up inertia
when the line gets pulled off there may be too much pressure there.

And Lastly, what kind of rod are you using when fishing this tippet?
Again, IMO, it is tougher to fish small tippets with a fast action rod
than it is with a moderate action rod, because the moderate action rod
tends to absorb some of the energy across the entire rod where as the
faster action rods don't flex as much, too much energy stays in the tip
section. It may just be that 6X is the limit to your tackle. If the rod
is a Sage SP+ or a T&T Horizon I would say 6X is stretching it.

My thoughts, others will disagree.

Wayne

On 14 Jun 2005 08:47:15 -0700, "Wayne Knight"
wrote:

If you look back at past threads there is one on small tippets, people
fly fishing 20+ years can't agree on it.


In my short time here, I haven't found much that anyone agrees on!

7x tippet is fine and very easy to bust off. Without seeing you break
it, how *hard* are you setting the hook? Are you tugging to set it or
are you just kind of raising the rod and tightening the line? Tugging
too hard, especially with a fast action rod and a reel with the drag
set too tight is a prescription for popping the tippet.


Slight tug - less than the BassMaster "jerk 'em into the boat"
approach, but more than just raising the rod. I should try to be less
excitable...

What position are you placing the rod when trying to play the fish?
Overhead in the traditional "Orvis" pose or otherwise straight up tends
to put more pressure then playing the rod off to the side.


Not straight up, maybe about 15 degrees off either direction. Again,
I'm only experiencing this when setting.

How is the drag on your reel set? If there is a lot of start up inertia
when the line gets pulled off there may be too much pressure there.


The drag seems okay (again, only in reference to playing the fish) but
if this continues I'll play with that, too.

And Lastly, what kind of rod are you using when fishing this tippet?

A 5wt Orvis Trident TLS, mid-flex.

My thoughts, others will disagree.

Thanks for the advice.

In article ,
says...
On 14 Jun 2005 08:47:15 -0700, "Wayne Knight"
wrote:

7x tippet is fine and very easy to bust off. Without seeing you break
it, how *hard* are you setting the hook?

Slight tug - less than the BassMaster "jerk 'em into the boat"
approach, but more than just raising the rod. I should try to be less
excitable...


You can also use a "slip strike," where you set the hook normally, but
you hold the line loosely in your line hand so that the line slips
through your fingers. This is useful in any situation where the size
of the fish is large relative to the breaking strength of your tippet;
say, if you are setting the hook on a 10 pound pike with 10 pound
tippet.

Kevin



--
reply to: kevin dot vang at minotstateu dot edu

Charles Crolley wrote:

The drag seems okay (again, only in reference to playing the fish) but
if this continues I'll play with that, too.

If you're using really light tippet, set the drag to the lightest
setting that will prevent overspooling when you strip line. Play the
fish by palming the spool. (I usually do this anyway with trout, even
with heavy tippet. I can always tighten the drag after the hookup if I
want.)

On the hookset the drag shouldn't even come into play, as you mention.
However, the line is held in your left (noncasting) hand. That acts as a
"drag." Hold the line gently between your thumb and index finger. The
shock of the hookset in what's breaking your tippet. Maybe you're
gripping the line too firmly.

Another problem could be the way you're tying your knots. Tightening a
knot too quickly heats and weakens the tippet above the knot, and this
is especially true for light tippets and clinch knots (not so much with
surgeon's knots). If there is any curling of the tippet that means it's
weak and you should retie.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Charles Crolley wrote:

Slight tug - less than the BassMaster "jerk 'em into the boat"
approach, but more than just raising the rod. I should try to be less
excitable...


Kevin and Steve gave good advice on setting the hook, you have to take
it easy.

There was a tippet available a few years ago, I think it was Varias
Superstong. You might want to do a web search and see if it is still
available and buy some of the smaller diameter stuff. If I recall
correctly their 7x had the breaking point of most other makers 5X. It
was good stuff but I've not seen it lately or I would load up on it.


The drag seems okay (again, only in reference to playing the fish) but
if this continues I'll play with that, too.

As Steve said, keep it as light as it will go. There are lots of good
reels out there which will cover 95% of one's trout fishing needs for
under a $100 up to $600+. In that 5% range are those situations where
startup inertia will help increase the strain on small tippets

A 5wt Orvis Trident TLS, mid-flex.

I've not played with a mid-flex Trident in some time but i remember
them vaguely as being a little stiffer than other mid flex rods. If you
still continue to have break offs after you lessen the power on your
hook set, I would reconsider using 7X with this rod. If you like Orvis
rods, want to keep using 7x AND want an excuse to buy another rod, look
at their Superfine series of rods.

"Charles Crolley" wrote in
message ...

I took this sport up in October of last year, so TIA-
Charles

I hope you see what you started.

Use five x for another year, it's plenty fine.

john

Charles Crolley wrote:
I took this sport up in October of last year, so I'm still a novice -
pardon me if this is a stupid question,

Last week, I broke off my 7x tippet at least 4 times on strikes. It
broke anywhere from just below the knot joining it to the leader, at
the hook, and other places in between. This happened with two
different spools and types (Orvis and Frog Hair) 7x. None of the
tippet is old (according to the expiration dates, at least). The last
few times I broke off, I replaced the entire tippet - but it still
broke off. (Oddly enough, I don't break off once the hook is set.)

I haven't had the same problem with 6x, which leads me to believe I'm
doing something wrong. I'm still catching fish, but would prefer for
environmental/stealth reasons to go with the lighter tippet. I'm
careful in handling the tippet, and am using a surgeon's knot to
attach it to my leader.

Can anyone hazard a guess as to the flaw in my technique that might be
causing me to break off with the 7x?

The flaw is using it. Go into the light and find the 5 or 6X.
--
TL,
Tim
---------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Charles Crolley wrote:

Last week, I broke off my 7x tippet at least 4 times on strikes. It
broke anywhere from just below the knot joining it to the leader, at
the hook, and other places in between. This happened with two
different spools and types (Orvis and Frog Hair) 7x. None of the
tippet is old (according to the expiration dates, at least). The last
few times I broke off, I replaced the entire tippet - but it still
broke off. (Oddly enough, I don't break off once the hook is set.)

I haven't had the same problem with 6x, which leads me to believe I'm
doing something wrong.

Not enough info to figure it out. Regarding breaking at the knots do you
lubricate the knots before tightening them up?

Mu

You've gotten tons of great advice from folks more experienced than I
am, but it sounds like you are making the same mistakes I made when I
was starting out a few years back. My starter kit came with a spool of
7x, and I figured that this was what folks mostly used. Of course I've
learned better; I almost never use that fine of a tippet anymore, and
far prefer 5x or occasionally 6x. I don't think I've fished 7x in any
situation for any of my last 40 outings. I know I've gone through 4 or
5 spools of 4x and not one spool of 7x.

But when I did use 7x, I found that my knots were always a weak spot:
I'd touch the grass on a backcast, and the tippet would snap off at the
hook, or I'd be false casting, and the whole front end would break off
at the leader. I didn't fully appreciate how easily a 7x tippet burns
when tying knots: even now I tend to hold my tippet underwater or in my
mouth when I tighten, and I do it very gently. Its healthy to be
paranoid about burning your knots.

I also found that I was wrapping the line around my finger to get a
grip on it when I was tightening it, sometimes even pinching it a
little against my fingernail, and that was weakening it. If your
midtippet breaks are about 6 inches from the knot, I bet that's what's
happening.

Anyway, take Tim Js advice; don't fish 7x until you've figured out
everything else, as you probably aren't advanced enough to be using it.
That level of stealth in the tippet is probably being undone by a
thousand other things.

HTH, and good luck.
--riverman