Merry Christmas!

Karl S wrote:

However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

Where do Santa Claus and the reindeer (including Rudolph) and the elves
and Mrs. Santa Claus fit into this Jesus thing?

Easter is the preeminent Christian holiday (although the Easter Bunny is
gaining ground). One Christian holiday is quite enough for me to ignore.
Christmas belongs to pop culture.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"Karl S" wrote in message
t...

I'm sorry Wolfgang,

Well, I don't believe that, but let's see where you go with it, shall we?

but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the point.

I'm doing neither.....but DO go on.

Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth.

Nope. You may rest assured that the Church fathers got the point. That's
why Christmas HAS TO be at the winter solstice.....or the vernal equinox.
Well, somewhere in the general neighborhood, anyway.

That it was set in December was a slightly shameful political decision
taken a long time ago, that is true.

No, that is not true. There's nothing shameful about it. It's a time
honored tradition.....besides making eminent good sense.

Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.

No, they don't GET political.....they ARE political......as you are, albeit
with little success.

However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
Christ.

You can call it whatever you please. Makes no difference to me.

The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

Indeed. Would that we might see it someday. Don't hold your breath,
though.

You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun of
it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season for
Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.

There is nothing at all malicious about my examination or understanding of
Christian mythology....any more than there is about the mythologies of the
Muslims, the Jews, the Hindus, the Buddhists or any other religious group
I've looked at. Nor do I consider it worth my time to bother with hating
Gilgamesh, Jesus, Beowulf, or Huck Finn. You're going to have to find
someone else to wear that badge. However, if you're really all that serious
about courting martyrdom......well, you HAVE come to the right place.


By the way, celebrate it today.

I'll celebrate whatever I please whenever I choose to.

Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.

Well......gosh......why wasn't I informed?

Wolfgang

"Karl S" wrote ...

snip

By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season for
Christ-haters

Karl S.

Christ-haters? Oh my.

Seems Mr. S. hath consumed a bit of the Kool-Aid.

Dan

"Karl S" wrote in message
t...
Wolfgang wrote:
"Karl S" wrote in message
...

Stan Gula wrote:

I call bull****.
Here's some details:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...eRealStory.htm

The Roman Saturnalia celebration predates Christianity, and the Romans
actually stole (errr, adopted) the idea from the Greeks who called it
Sacaea. And the Greeks stole it from Babylon where it was called
Zagmuk.
The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a
lot
of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient
past.
Note that Zagmuk is very similar to Zagnut, a wicked fine candy bar,
which
has been made for over 75 years which predates most of us. Not that
that
relates to Christmas at all, except that if somebody wanted to buy me a
reasonable priced candy bar for a present, well, hint, hint, wink,
wink.

Gonna open a nice bottle of port tomorrow to toast "Longer Days!".

I said "widely popular holidays", Stan.

What percentage of the world today celebrates Saturnalia? Sacaea?
Zagmuk?
The Solstice? The most popular runner-up would be Chanukah or Hanukkah,
whichever spelling you prefer, but that is a rather minor celebration of
the Jewish faith which is widely recognized only because it occurs in
the
same part of the year as Christmas.
Forgotten celebrations to dead religions really don't count as a basis
for
a holiday season.
It doesn't even really matter that Christmas is near the solstice.
If Christmas happened in July, the holiday season would be in July.
And December would be only a time of waiting for New Year's Day.


You sort of missed the point, Karl. Christmas couldn't happen in
July......the winter solstice......get it? Most of the world pays
attention
to the winter solstice in one way or another, and celebrates Saturnalia,
Sacaea, Zagmuk, Christmas, Chanukah or whatever.......and has since
antiquity.....they just change the name and the idols periodically. The
Christians merely borrowed from a variety of creation myths (as did the
Jews.....and the Romans......and others.....before them) and stuck some
of
their own window dressing on it. Their major problem was that they
weren't
real good with calendars........or at making up their minds for that
matter.
They missed the solstice.....and they still can't decide whether or not
they
like the vernal equinox (about the timing of which they are equally
uncertain).....the whole death and rebirth (resurrection, blah,
blah....you
know, Easter) better than the solstice. See, the old year
dies.....cosmic
significance and all that.....right? But when does it begin anew?
Hm......is it when they days start to get longer?......or is it when the
grass starts to grow again? Well, what the hell......let's start it
both
times! Can't lose!

Wolfgang
i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
important birthday?


I'm sorry Wolfgang, but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the
point.

Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in December
was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.

However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
By the way, celebrate it today.

Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.

Karl S.

Merry Christmas to you Karl and all Christians. Just ignore all this stuff
and enjoy the holiday for whatever reasons and meanings it has to you.

As someone who regularly offends, I have an idea how disconcerting some of
our dark humor, and history etc can be, but don't take it personally. The
deal isn't usually that folks "hate" Christ, or want to kill him: The deal
is that while many admire some of the teachings attributed to Christ the
man, not everyone worships him as a god. In fact, just as some Christians
have a problem with the cult of Mary, some monotheists (who share your
belief in Jehovah, the Father-God), kinda look upon some of the Christian
stuff as a Jesus cult.

Anyway Merry Christmas, and please don't make too much of the static; its
just a way to pass thru what I think even you will admit can be a pretty
heavy dose of commercialized time.

Dave
Some of my best friends are Christians and Jews and Muslims, you know, the
Desert Churches. I will toast all their holidays, Prophets and God around
the fire tonight.

Karl S wrote in
t:

Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in
December
was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.

However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus,
the
Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
By the way, celebrate it today.


Au contraire-- I level the charge that those who wallow in the "We won't
let THEM steal our Christmas" thing are doing it because they love the
sheer malicious fun of making THEM stand out as Christ-haters. Further,
I invoke your use of the term "Christ-hater" as evidence that you are a
proud part of this wallowing group (wow, "wallow" works in so many ways
here, doesn't it?). Personally, I could respect your belief a whole lot
more if you could respect my disbelief.

This whole non-issue was started by some asswipe on Fox News who needed
more ratings. How many times have you been non-politely rebuffed after
saying "Merry Christmas", that this has become such a real issue for you?

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply
Hak mir nisht ken tshaynik

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:10:46 -0800, Karl S
wrote:



You sort of missed the point, Karl. Christmas couldn't happen in
July......the winter solstice......get it? Most of the world pays attention
to the winter solstice in one way or another, and celebrates Saturnalia,
Sacaea, Zagmuk, Christmas, Chanukah or whatever.......and has since
antiquity.....they just change the name and the idols periodically. The
Christians merely borrowed from a variety of creation myths (as did the
Jews.....and the Romans......and others.....before them) and stuck some of
their own window dressing on it. Their major problem was that they weren't
real good with calendars........or at making up their minds for that matter.
They missed the solstice.....and they still can't decide whether or not they
like the vernal equinox (about the timing of which they are equally
uncertain).....the whole death and rebirth (resurrection, blah, blah....you
know, Easter) better than the solstice. See, the old year dies.....cosmic
significance and all that.....right? But when does it begin anew?
Hm......is it when they days start to get longer?......or is it when the
grass starts to grow again? Well, what the hell......let's start it both
times! Can't lose!

Wolfgang
i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
important birthday?


I'm sorry Wolfgang, but you are not missing - but rather, ignoring - the
point.

Christmas could indeed be any time of the year, because it seems nobody
really knows the exact date of Jesus' birth. That it was set in December
was a slightly shameful political decision taken a long time ago, that
is true. Mankind, even well-meaning scholarly types, can get political.

However, Christmas is in fact the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the
Christ. The salvation of mankind is worth celebrating.

You will of course continue to ignore this, for the sheer malicious fun
of it. By all means do so, for this time of year is the hatching season
for Christ-haters, if that is how you celebrate the winter solstice.
By the way, celebrate it today.

Not on the 25th. That's Christmas.

Karl S.


Christmas is celebrated in whatever way (and for whatever reason) the
celebrants wish to celebrate it. I have no problem with a person
celebrating it as a deeply religious holiday. I have no problem with
someone celebrating it with no mention of Jesus. I do have a problem
with people telling other people how they must organize their family
traditions. Christmas is the name of a day. Its origins are obvious,
but in the modern world it is the name of a day, just as Halloween is
the name of a former holy day that has been adopted as a secular name
for October 31st. Christmas has also become a secular name for
December 25th. Like it or not Christmas is now a time for merrymaking
with prayer and reflection being an option.

And this is not just a modern phenomenon. Christmas was until 150
years ago primarily an adult, secular celebration, which included
lots of alcohol cosumption and even role changing. The wassailers, far
from being happy, pious carollers were groups who went from door to
door singing and expecting to rewarded with drink. They became
progressively drunker and rowdier as they made their rounds. This is,
in part, why Christmas was banned by the Pilgrims (and the English
Roundheads IIRC). Like it or not Christmas is just our cultures way of
celebrating during the darkest time of the year. A phenomena that is a
universal custom in the northern hemisphere, no matter what its
called.

g.c.

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
important birthday?

Frankly, yes

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
...

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

i mean, does ANYBODY really still believe that december 25th marks an
important birthday?

Frankly, yes


Yeah......I KNEW somebody was going to say that.

Wolfgang
who, being rather young at the time.....and with other things on his
mind......has always taken his own birth date on faith.

The solstice was celebrated in Babylon 4,000 years before Christ and a lot
of the 'Christmas traditions' have been handed down from the ancient past.

If it's good enough for Druids
Running nekkid through the wuids,
Drinking strange fermented fluids,
Then it's good enough for me!

A salutary and salubrious solstice, 'specially with a soupcon of
silliness, to one and all!

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message

If it's good enough for Druids
Running nekkid through the wuids,
Drinking strange fermented fluids,
Then it's good enough for me!

A salutary and salubrious solstice, 'specially with a soupcon of
silliness, to one and all!

Likewise to you, Vince!!! Thanks for the chuckle.....
Tom