Fly Floatant

"Goat" wrote

George, could this be the stuff / site you are refering to? Sounds the
same, bag and all. $5.20
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...es/cabosil.php




for $5 I'm going to try it ... that was one site I remember from when I was
looking the first time. I didn't want to get it online if I could find it
local, at that time.

"George Adams" wrote in message
...
From: (Goat)

Now the Cab-o-Sil is not quite so easy to get but I will give it a try
as well. Found some online for $5.20 for 1 gal. The Cab-o-Sil is a
powder correct? Does it protect againt the water saturating the fly or
does it just dry out the flies fibers (or both)

There may be more than one type of Cab -o- Sil. (see Larry L's posts on
this
thread) The one I purchased was from Spruce Aircraft, and I think it was
more
expensive, but I might be including shipping charges. My memory ain't what
it
used to was, and I discarded all the info I had long ago.

In my experience, it dries out the fibers, and also acts as a floatant,
but
it's main advantage is as a super dessicant that will dry out delicate
fibers
like CDC and ostrich herl. The trick is to work it into the fibers
completely
with a brush. You may want to consider purchasing one container of FF to
get
the supplied brush.
...

I just did a little experiment.

I put about half an ounce of water in a glass pinch bowl and then added a
pinch of Frog's Fanny. The FF floated in clumps of various small sizes.
After stirring vigorously for a couple of minutes, all of the FF was still
floating. Twenty minutes later, all of it is still floating.....or, at
least apparently so. None is visible below the surface. Without chemical
analysis, it's impossible to tell whether or not any has dissolved.......but
I don't think it has. What does this mean? Well, it looks like FF is not a
desiccant, at least in the sense that silica gel or clay (two of the most
widely used desiccants) are. Both clay and silica gel work by absorption.
They are both porous and hydrophilic. That is to say, they readily form
loose bonds with water molecules and have a large available surface area
with which to form many such bonds......they hold a LOT of water. Drop
either of them in water and, even if ground exceedingly fine (like FF) and
they will sink because both are heavier than water AND their hydrophilic
character allows them, even in very small pieces, to break the surface
tension......they sink

FF seems to work by aDsorption, as opposed to aBsorption. Adsorption is
purely a surface phenomenon. FF works because water clings to the surface
and then is brushed off with the excess FF. Drop a saturated fly in a
bottle of FF and you will pull out a saturated fly covered in FF.

Bottom line.......Frog's Fanny is not a desiccant.....nor, it seems, exactly
a floatant either. Or, at least not a floatant like most that we are
familiar with. It doesn't appear to absorb water like desiccants. Thus,
anything that is thoroughly coated with it won't absorb either. But it
doesn't cling to fly tying materials like all of the hydrocarbon based
floatant materials we're used to......and thus, it doesn't last long either.

I did another experiment. I don't know what "fumed" silica is, but I DO
know what silica is. Silica is silicon dioxide.....two oxygen atoms bonded
(very tightly) to one silicon atom. Silicon dioxide is THE most common
substance in the Earth's crust (remember OSiAlFeCaNaKMg?)....rock, sand,
quartz. Silicon dioxide won't burn.....burning is combustion, is
oxidation.....the silicon in silicon dioxide is already as oxidized as it's
ever going to get. I put a liberal shake of FF on a piece of paper towel,
and set fire to the paper. The FF survived, unscathed. Whatever this stuff
is, one simple test confirms that it COULD be silica.

Is there a mineralogist in the house?

Wolfgang
ain't science fun?

Buy a little bottle of silicone water-proofer made for shoes.
Cavalier' is one brand name, available at Walmart. When you finish
tying a batch of dry flies, dip them in it, or paint them with it
using a small brush, and let them dry overnight.

You don't have to mess around with "greasy kid stuff" while on the
stream.

Alternative: Buy a can of Thompson Water seal. Do the above.

vince

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:50:50 GMT, "Larry L"
wrote:


"Goat" wrote

George, could this be the stuff / site you are refering to? Sounds the
same, bag and all. $5.20
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...es/cabosil.php




for $5 I'm going to try it ... that was one site I remember from when I was
looking the first time. I didn't want to get it online if I could find it
local, at that time.


If I may offer: Google up Cabot's website, get the product numbers for
the various "Cab-O-Sil" products, and then simply compare what Spruce
has to the Cabot product data. Just make sure it is a
hydrophobic/treated variety, Cabot or otherwise.

HTH,
R

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:51:13 -0500, "Wolfgang" wrote:



Is there a mineralogist in the house?

No, but there IS guy whose family owns a silica mine...hydrophobic
(often treated with silicone oil - like copier oil) fumed silica should
have the properties of FF. The untreated variety should not as it is
hydrophilic. I can't remember where I heard it, but I do remember
hearing that FF is the treated stuff as is used in certain toner
formulations. FWIW, "Cab-O-Sil" isn't a specific product, it is a line
name, with various formulations in the line.

HTH,
R


Wolfgang
ain't science fun?

From:


George, could this be the stuff / site you are refering to? Sounds the
same, bag and all. $5.20
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...es/cabosil.php

Yes, that's it.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

Hi Goat,

Years ago the old timers mixed paraffin and lighter fluid.

I have seen guides mix the old Red Mucilin paste with lighter fluid to thin
it so they could dunk their flies.

I think you can buy Lanolin Anhydrous at the drug store which is suppose to
be what most paste/crème floatants are made up from.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA, USA

Web site: www.kiene.com


"Goat" wrote in message
...

The area I live in does not have a flyshop within an hour drive. After
gas or shipping charges from mail order (not to mention the wait)
floatant ends up costing twice as much, but
more than that it is just becoming a pain in the butt.
This leads me to my question.
Does anybody know how I can make my own floatant? Something I can
pick-up at the hardware store or grocery store prehaps?
What did the "old timers" use as floatant in the days before LL Bean?

Thanks

(new to group, so if this is a beaten horse..... Sorry)

"vincent p. norris" wrote:

Buy a little bottle of silicone water-proofer made for shoes.
Cavalier' is one brand name, available at Walmart. When you finish
tying a batch of dry flies, dip them in it, or paint them with it
using a small brush, and let them dry overnight.

A low cost alternative to Hydrostop..... thanks, Vince.

JR

"Larry L" wrote:
I'm not convinced that fumed silica, as sold for thickening resins, IS the
same as Frog's Fanny. I bought some from West Marine ( not "cab-o-sil"
brand, but fumed silica sold for same market) and it DOES look just like
Frog's Fanny, and DOES dry a fly just like Frog's Fanny.

BUT, that fly does NOT stay dry nearly as well as with Frog's Fanny.
Someone here on ROFF has said that Frog's Fanny (hereafter referred to as
FF
is "just a desiccant, not a fly floatant" That is not consistent
with
my experience OR the FF label/marketing packaging which clearly promotes
FF's ability to repel water and thus trap air around the fly for nymphing
use.

I heartily agree. Willi gave me a zip-lock full of silica gel (having
that laying around the house raised a few eyebrows), and although it works
quite well, it isn't the same as real FF, per Larry's observations.

wrote in message . ..

No, but there IS guy whose family owns a silica mine...hydrophobic
(often treated with silicone oil - like copier oil) fumed silica should
have the properties of FF. The untreated variety should not as it is
hydrophilic. I can't remember where I heard it, but I do remember
hearing that FF is the treated stuff as is used in certain toner
formulations. FWIW, "Cab-O-Sil" isn't a specific product, it is a line
name, with various formulations in the line.

I am wondering if cab-o-sil is the same as "colloidal silica". The
reason I mention it is because you used to be able to get a sampler
pack from West System epoxy that included "colloidal silica" as a
filler. IIRC, you simply paid shipping costs for the pack. (Or
shipping costs plus a nominal fee.) I don't know if they still offer
that or not.

Anyhow, if this stuff is the same, I'd guess that you could order
some from them for a decent price.


Chuck Vance (who'll have to dig around in his shop to see where
he put that sampler pack)