ribbing wulffs

wrote:
Tying up a batch of small wulffs for a trip.

Royal I presume? My comments follow: YMMV

1) Do you guys rib them? They look better in my eye with some fine
gold wire or crystal flash, though this is not apparent on any
pattern or references.

I don't tie these too often anymore. In most of the places I fish an
Ausable (Fran Betters' variant). I rib most of the peacock bodied flies I
tie with fine gold wire because I think it looks good with the peacock and I
like a fine wire better than tinsel on smaller flies. I have seen gold wire
ribbing in at least one of my tying books - don't recall which offhand. I
would guess one of Dick Talleur's. I don't rib an Ausable except on really
big ones and then I just use thread.

2) Do you use deer or elk? Can you articulate what makes good hair?

I use woodchuck tail most often. It's fine, stiff, waterproof, pretty
straight, and often has some color variation at the tips.

3) When you tie in the wing is it about 1/2 way up the shank?

Depends on how heavy you intend to do the hackle. I like a size-too-small
hackle covering half the shank on my Ausables so I put the wing just about
1/3 shank length back from the eye. If I'm going sparser, I'll put the wing
1/4 of the way back, I also usually substitute snowshoe hare for the calf
tail on the wings. Not as bright but floats better.

4) How long do you make the tails?

Shank length.

I ask 3 and 4 because I have had some problems with Wullf's riding on
their noses though they look fine.

You can always clip the bottom hackle to help them float 'right'.
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

wrote:
Hi All,

Tying up a batch of small wulffs for a trip.

1) Do you guys rib them? They look better in my eye with some fine gold
wire or crystal flash, though this is not apparent on any pattern or
references.

2) Do you use deer or elk? Can you articulate what makes good hair?

3) When you tie in the wing is it about 1/2 way up the shank?

4) How long do you make the tails?

I ask 3 and 4 because I have had some problems with Wullf's riding on
their noses though they look fine.

Thanks very much,

TBone
Guilt replaced the creel...



Try tying a few trude style. I think they work even better, they're
easier to tie and they never land "wrong."

Willi

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:04:25 -0600, Willi wrote:

wrote:
Hi All,

Tying up a batch of small wulffs for a trip.

1) Do you guys rib them? They look better in my eye with some fine gold
wire or crystal flash, though this is not apparent on any pattern or
references.

2) Do you use deer or elk? Can you articulate what makes good hair?

3) When you tie in the wing is it about 1/2 way up the shank?

4) How long do you make the tails?

I ask 3 and 4 because I have had some problems with Wullf's riding on
their noses though they look fine.

Thanks very much,

TBone
Guilt replaced the creel...



Try tying a few trude style. I think they work even better, they're
easier to tie and they never land "wrong."

Willi

I'm curious as to your experience with these never landing "wrong."
I don't see, as a broad statement and without taking the
proportions/"float line" into account, how the wing position/style could
make this true, but ???

TC,
R

wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:04:25 -0600, Willi wrote:

wrote:
Hi All,

Tying up a batch of small wulffs for a trip.

1) Do you guys rib them? They look better in my eye with some fine gold
wire or crystal flash, though this is not apparent on any pattern or
references.

2) Do you use deer or elk? Can you articulate what makes good hair?

3) When you tie in the wing is it about 1/2 way up the shank?

4) How long do you make the tails?

I ask 3 and 4 because I have had some problems with Wullf's riding on
their noses though they look fine.

Thanks very much,

TBone
Guilt replaced the creel...



Try tying a few trude style. I think they work even better, they're
easier to tie and they never land "wrong."

Willi

I'm curious as to your experience with these never landing "wrong."
I don't see, as a broad statement and without taking the
proportions/"float line" into account, how the wing position/style could
make this true, but ???
[snip]

Howdy,

This is kind of at the heart of this thread. A long time ago I was
taught that the tails of a wulff should be shorter than on a normal dry
fly, and more bulky, and that the wings should be set back a little
towards the middle than on a normal thorax dry. In reviewing this
thread several things have come to mind and a few more questions
remain.

Instead of saying "wulff" to define this class of tie I think
"hair-wing dry fly" is better. Are the proportions different (than
other winging methods) because the weight of deer hair too far forward
tends to overcome the weight of the gap part of the hook and tail,
despite otherwise normal proportions? I'd like to weigh a wing size
clump of hair, some hackle tips, calf tails etc. as well as the weight
of just the gap of a hook. I imagine that the weight of thread is
potentially contributory as more is needed to secure deer hair ends.

The other thing of interest (to me anyway) is that I tie on more varied
hook styles than ever before. Someone mentioned 1X shank length to make
these easier and look better, but I believe it's possible that this
would only increase the potential for nose dive moving it forward of
the COG more.

It also dawned on me, d'oh, that the normal prescription for tails, (1
X shank length), is not as fundamentally sound as making it relative to
the gap width as this has more to play with hackle length and that
'plane' which runs from hackle tips to tail points. So, for the deer
hair dry flies we might be better served by Tail - 1 to 1.5 Gap, Wings
positioned only slightly forward of center of shank.

Thanks,

TBone
Guilt replaced the creel.

On 29 Jun 2006 06:58:50 -0700, wrote:


wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:04:25 -0600, Willi wrote:

wrote:
Hi All,

Tying up a batch of small wulffs for a trip.

1) Do you guys rib them? They look better in my eye with some fine gold
wire or crystal flash, though this is not apparent on any pattern or
references.

2) Do you use deer or elk? Can you articulate what makes good hair?

3) When you tie in the wing is it about 1/2 way up the shank?

4) How long do you make the tails?

I ask 3 and 4 because I have had some problems with Wullf's riding on
their noses though they look fine.

Thanks very much,

TBone
Guilt replaced the creel...



Try tying a few trude style. I think they work even better, they're
easier to tie and they never land "wrong."

Willi

I'm curious as to your experience with these never landing "wrong."
I don't see, as a broad statement and without taking the
proportions/"float line" into account, how the wing position/style could
make this true, but ???
[snip]

Howdy,

This is kind of at the heart of this thread.

Then I readily admit I'm lost. I didn't know Trude-style flies had
anything to do with it until Willi mentioned them. I realize you had a
question about wing positioning, but I thought it was in the context of
a "standard" Wulff tie. IOW, I'd offer that what might be called a
Trude "variation" is quite often really a different fly that may or may
not use the same or similar materials to, for example, a particular
Wulff. To help support this, I'd offer the Lime Trude. While I'm sure
some might tie a "Lime Wulff," it certainly isn't as popular as the
Trude, and while there are "Royal Trudes" (or whatever), they aren't as
popular as Royal Wulffs or even Coachmen.

A long time ago I was taught that the tails of a wulff should be shorter
than on a normal dry fly, and more bulky, and that the wings should
be set back a little towards the middle than on a normal thorax dry.
In reviewing this thread several things have come to mind and a
few more questions remain.

What do you mean by "normal" dry fly? If you are speaking of imitators,
they should attempt to have the same, or as close to as possible,
silhouette as what it imitates, preferably in 3D, but certainly from the
fish's perspective. As to attractors/stimulators, they don't really
imitate anything, so if putting the wings in the back and a "tail" in
front and having them ride any old way, but they still attract fish,
they are "right." And one of the big selling points of Trude style
flies, I thought, was that they could be (particularly and
intentionally) fished dry or wet.

Instead of saying "wulff" to define this class of tie I think
"hair-wing dry fly" is better. Are the proportions different (than
other winging methods) because the weight of deer hair too far forward
tends to overcome the weight of the gap part of the hook and tail,
despite otherwise normal proportions? I'd like to weigh a wing size
clump of hair, some hackle tips, calf tails etc. as well as the weight
of just the gap of a hook. I imagine that the weight of thread is
potentially contributory as more is needed to secure deer hair ends.

The other thing of interest (to me anyway) is that I tie on more varied
hook styles than ever before. Someone mentioned 1X shank length to make
these easier and look better, but I believe it's possible that this
would only increase the potential for nose dive moving it forward of
the COG more.

It also dawned on me, d'oh, that the normal prescription for tails, (1
X shank length), is not as fundamentally sound as making it relative to
the gap width as this has more to play with hackle length and that
'plane' which runs from hackle tips to tail points. So, for the deer
hair dry flies we might be better served by Tail - 1 to 1.5 Gap, Wings
positioned only slightly forward of center of shank.

IMO from my training and experience, trying to use a formula won't
always work, and since that's the point of a formula, don't use one.
It's proportions and the imaginary line with the three points previously
described and little or nothing to do with weight (assuming the material
type and amount are kept within a reasonable range, of course). As
always, your and other folks mileage may well vary from mine and each
others.

And I'd try to stay away from trimming such flies into working if
possible.

TC,
R

Thanks,

TBone
Guilt replaced the creel.

wrote:


I'm curious as to your experience with these never landing "wrong."
I don't see, as a broad statement and without taking the
proportions/"float line" into account, how the wing position/style could
make this true, but ???

TC,
R


Never is a chancy word, but the weight of the relatively heavy hair wing
lying horizontally prevents the fly from "standing on its nose" while a
heavy upwing hair wing tends to cause it.

Willi

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:23:54 -0600, Willi wrote:

wrote:


I'm curious as to your experience with these never landing "wrong."
I don't see, as a broad statement and without taking the
proportions/"float line" into account, how the wing position/style could
make this true, but ???

TC,
R


Never is a chancy word, but the weight of the relatively heavy hair wing
lying horizontally prevents the fly from "standing on its nose" while a
heavy upwing hair wing tends to cause it.

Granted "never" and I didn't take your use of it in this case as an
absolute.

That said, I'd offer that if the material weight is really affecting
things, positively or negatively, something isn't "right" - too much is
being used, the wrong proportions (of material, not the fly's
proportions) are being used - for example, a tail with one or two
strands and a really full hackle and wing, or other "flaws" in the tie.
I thought that Trudes were tyed as such to streamline them when fished
wet, rather than as a weight distribution system, but ???

I can see that the weight could come into play with ties that get a
little too far outside the "sweet spot" range of material usage or if
the fly's proportions were a little less than good, but again ???

TC,
R

Willi

Willi wrote:
wrote:


I'm curious as to your experience with these never landing "wrong."
I don't see, as a broad statement and without taking the
proportions/"float line" into account, how the wing position/style could
make this true, but ???

TC,
R


Never is a chancy word, but the weight of the relatively heavy hair wing
lying horizontally prevents the fly from "standing on its nose" while a
heavy upwing hair wing tends to cause it.

Agreed, and the truth is, I really, really like the trudes, coachman
dries, stimulators and the other downwing ilk. I just want to learn to
tie a mean wulff. I think I'm on my way!

Thanks man.

Your pal,

TBone