*** Western Clave 2004 Fallout ****

wrote in news:7l40t0dom4qjnpetv8rr68broa701n8b7u@
4ax.com:

Are you, right now, willing to commit to spend more than
250.00USD to fight? If not, you have found your line.

HTH and good luck,
R


The first approach, and certainly a reasonable one, is to do whatever
your insurance company tells you do do. Ask your insurance company if
you are putting yourself on the line if you contest this charge.
Personally, I'd be very suprised if your insurer didn't demand thorough
documentation before payment.

If the insurance company says its OK (and ONLY if they say its OK), I'd
think it would be worth at least one polite registered letter, saying
that Mike didn't notice any damage, that the agent accepting the car
didn't point out any damage, and four months sounds like an unreasonable
amount of time for notification of a problem. Ask for a dated photo of
the damage, and the circumstances under which it was discovered. Was it
the renter after you who reported it when he turned the car in, saying
"It was like that when I got it"?

Be very specific about saying you'll be very happy to turn this over to
your insurance company for review if they can provide this documentation,
but you'll refer the matter to the appropriate State Attorney General's
office and the BBB if they don't. DO NOT, in any circumstance, suggest
that you will accept their terms if they provide documentation-- you
might be waiving some rights your insurance company would like to keep.

Also, in the future, ALWAYS do a walk-around the car before you get into
it, and if you see any damage, demand a new car, or specify that the
damage be entered into the rental contract. I've done it myself, and
sometimes for tiny dings. There's no telling what the rental agency is
going to make a stink about later.

Scott

"Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm wrote in message
...

"B J Conner" wrote in message
news:w6Jzd.18084$rL3.8644@trnddc03...


Alamo is off our rent list for a couple of reasons. None as bad as
yours.
Once we had a car with a bad bearing -squeeled something like a 747, I
can't
believe they couldn't hear it. The other two times were cars that were
not
available. We had gotten confirmed car pickups and then the cars wern't
there. Once we had to wait 3 hours and the other time go to the Avis
counter. The guy who's running the class action suit against them is
on
the right track.



I'm getting the impression that Alamo isn't the best rental company. I
did
rent from Alamo in Orlando after the Clave, and before they notified me,
and
that car had some light damage on it when I rented it. I noted it with
the
security guard on the way out, and thinking now that was a good idea. Too
bad I didn't get someone to attest to the condition of the car when I
turned
the truck back in, in Jackson Hole. Needless to say Alamo has been added
to
my blacklist.

Thanks for your comments.

Mike


One thing I forgot - one of the companies I dealt with wasn't Alamo but a
independant business licensed by Alamo. You may not be dealing with the
real Alamo.

"rw" wrote in message news:WKVzd.10832

Here's an idea for Mike. Next time, rent from Alamo again, buy the
insurance they offer, and have a helluva thrilling time with the car.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

I can't comment on that one.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:09:26 -0500, "Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm
wrote:

Almost four months after the Western Clave I recvd a call letting me know
that I owed $1900 for damages to the rental car (actually truck) I had
while

Some thoughts, in no particular order...

1. Call the shop that did the repair and see what they have to say on
matters such as age of damage, Alamo's diligence on picking up vehicle
upon completion, etc.

2. Call Alamo's HQ and ask for (or demand) the pre-repair notification
to you, and your waiver of rights.

3. How and _where_ _exactly_ did you make the reservation? While
Wyoming will probably eventually control, if you created a contract in,
or any part of the contract, say, California, you can always make THEM
change the jurisdiction/venue/etc..

4. Is there a lawyer friend available to write a letter to Alamo? If
their case is the least bit, um, doubtful, this may end the matter. It
need not be much more than a general inquiry type of letter: please
provide a written report, copies of all contracts, reports, repair
orders, etc. to my office for review... However, realize that
"favors" like this can put obligations upon a lawyer, and that "your
friend, Bob Jones" and "Bob Jones, a lawyer" are two distinct entities.
Take any answer to a request for such "favors" as coming from the latter
first and former second.

5. My suspicion is that no matter what "Alamo" actually believes, if
you are a big enough pain in the ass, "they'll" drop it as a matter of
economics.

6. I use "" in 5., above, to indicate that likely as not, there is one
person making the decisions in this matter (possibly with a supervisor
signing off) rather than "company/corporation,", and you'll know much
more about WTF is going on if you can reach that one person.

IMO, you need to decide what controls for you - principles and time or
pocketbook, because one is going to have to give, and I suspect Alamo
can tell you EXACTLY at what point it's "oh, **** it" line will be
crossed. Someone said something about ins. cos. not paying hinkey
claims and they are correct - generally speaking, an ins. co. will spend
1000s to avoid 100s in bogus claims, but they have a economic incentive
to do so. Are you, right now, willing to commit to spend more than
250.00USD to fight? If not, you have found your line.

HTH and good luck,
R

"Scott Seidman" wrote in message

The first approach, and certainly a reasonable one, is to do whatever
your insurance company tells you do do. Ask your insurance company if
you are putting yourself on the line if you contest this charge.
Personally, I'd be very suprised if your insurer didn't demand thorough
documentation before payment.


First reaction from them was they would just pay it, but that was from the
agent, not someone at my insurance company. My next call on this is to the
company.

If the insurance company says its OK (and ONLY if they say its OK), I'd
think it would be worth at least one polite registered letter, saying
that Mike didn't notice any damage, that the agent accepting the car
didn't point out any damage, and four months sounds like an unreasonable
amount of time for notification of a problem. Ask for a dated photo of
the damage, and the circumstances under which it was discovered. Was it
the renter after you who reported it when he turned the car in, saying
"It was like that when I got it"?

Be very specific about saying you'll be very happy to turn this over to
your insurance company for review if they can provide this documentation,
but you'll refer the matter to the appropriate State Attorney General's
office and the BBB if they don't. DO NOT, in any circumstance, suggest
that you will accept their terms if they provide documentation-- you
might be waiving some rights your insurance company would like to keep.

Also, in the future, ALWAYS do a walk-around the car before you get into
it, and if you see any damage, demand a new car, or specify that the
damage be entered into the rental contract. I've done it myself, and
sometimes for tiny dings. There's no telling what the rental agency is
going to make a stink about later.

Registered letter sent in November stating I was disputing the claim, their
requirement before they would send me the "supporting" documentation. The
supporting documentation was that it was discovered while detailing the car
fot the next rental (they sent a form to that affect, all handwritten),
along with three copies of the car's condition report thingy that is
completed by the renter when you pick up the car and they fill one out after
I returned it (after I left), and copied of the agreement I signed at
rental. Interesting enough the first copy of the condition form was from
the previous renter who had indicated some dings on the car on both sides.
I didn't fill anything in as they gave me the slip at the counter inside and
said to come back if I noticed anything before driving off. I was in an
incredible hurry to get on with my first Western Clave and meet up with Jeff
Miller and IJ (a fatal mistake, I'm normally a PIA, but Alamo apparently
caught me with my guard down), did a quick walk around and did not notice
anything that jumped out at me. Their evaluation after I returned it did
not include the dings that the previous renter had noted on theirs.

I have indicated to the representative that there definetly was no damage to
the car when I dropped it off and there must be some honest mistake, she
blew me off. I indicated that the paperwork didn't add up, notification
four months later, repairs done two months after the claimed damages, etc,
etc but after checking with someone, she blew me off. I tried to find out
who that someone was, but, she said that she is being taskedto handle the
claim for them.

I have not asked for photos, that is going on my list for my next
conversation with them, along with needling the heck out of them for a
contact further up the chain.

I have to say that after repeating this a few times here, with some family
members, and with the idiots, that I theorize that they probably put the
cars in for maintenance after a certain period of time, or mileage, and at
that time they go back through all of the documentation to look for who to
pin it on. I'm just the easy target/scapegoat for all of the dings along
the way I bet.


Scott

Thanks Scott, you making it down for the PA Clave this year? I've got some
rediscovered water I can put you on. There's a couple of runs that with
the right fly ("right" depends on what type of fly is dominant on that day)
you will definetly get a fish or two, and possibly many more.

Mike

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:f6Uzd.17788$Qk5.6431@lakeread04...


Mike Makela wrote:


How can I find out if a state could grant attorney's fees? One of the
other reasons I hesitate to have it go to court is that in the agreement
it states: "I agree to pay your reasonable attorneys fees and costs in
any lawsuit relating to this agreement, including appeals." . Can they
really do that? Make me pay for their attorney fees?


um...yes virginia, there really is a boogey man. g short answer...yes,
in most states, shifting of litigation costs by contract is permitted.
but, you need to make them worry about it too. you're still in the
conversation, right.


I think I knew that....just in denial. Always figured it would be some
money grubbing, east coast metropolis groomed, ass that would take my legal
naiveness for the perverbial spin in the reality garbage disposal, certainly
not someone from Montana. The timing is a bit bad, but coming out of the
holiday fog. Still in conversation as far as I am aware, but they are
starting to get a bit threatening, so I need to move my butt.

google "wyoming consumer statute laws attorney fees"...or something
similar. some contracts contain a "choice of laws" clause...in other
words, the contract law of another state applies (or so they claim). you
might need to google a different state. look at the rental contract for
binding arbitration clauses too. some of those are punitive as well, but
the location might be more favorable to you.

Well it seemed clear cut, in the agreement I signed when renting the car, it
indicates that any disputes would be settled in the county where I signed
the rental agreement, but I did actually prepay for the rental online. I
made the reservation online in PA, with a company incorporated in Delaware.
I picked up the car in Wyoming, and it appears the owner of the car is:
Corpat, Inc in Missoula Montana. Don't think this factors in much, but the
company that contacted me, Purco, is in Spanish Fork, Utah, and the car was
repaired in Missoula, Montana. A tangled web, for sure...

There was also some documentation they sent me concerning Loss of Use rights
for property owners in Montana. It indicated that the property owner has
the right to be compensated fully for loss of use. They charged me for only
10 days of loss of use, yet, according to their documentation the car wasn't
repaired for two months after I returned the car. Not sure if I should
touch this one, but just another point that doesn't add up. They must
calculate loss of use in other ways, or just making it up as they go.

My running theory...I think they put the car in the shop at certain
intervals (mileage, and/or, time based) and I was the lucky one they picked
out of the line-up as the best one to pin all of the accumlated dings and
scratches on. Easier for them to go after one person, one insurance
company, then several.

I think if I can get some proof that they rented out the car between the
time I returned it, and when it was repaired in Missoula, along with the
reciept they gave me indicating that there were dings/scratches on it before
I rented it, I should be O.K.. Just a matter of how much time and money I
have to expend to do so.

if you get sued, your insurance company is supposed to provide a lawyer as
part of your policy coverage. another reason it will want to settle it
quickly and less expensively. getting your company involved is
important...if it's possible. you and your agent will have to convince
the adjuster to investigate more thoroughly, something he/she won't want
to spend time or effort doing.


Calling the insurance company directly tomorrow, bypassing the local agent
as they were no help.


now i understand how alamo recoups from those low rental costs. you
should also complain to the web site you used to obtain the car, as well
as your credit card company.


Well at least I didn't pay $6-700 for some tiny car/mini-van/SUV/truck thing
that some were driving around in....g

...and, i was just kidding about ij driving.g

Does he even know how to drive? Seems he always has a chauffeur when I see
him g, including myself at times.

Just kidding of course, great companions both of you, for the brief moments
I get to spend along the way.


jeff

Thanks for the advice...it's Really appreciated (and anyone else
contributing along the way). I was ready to throw in the towel, but may at
least make life a bit harder on them for a while. I'll call the insurance
company to get their last read on it, and go from there. Making a list of
stuff to harass the Purco rep with (got a ton of good advice along the way
just need to assemble it and decide on the priority), and will call this
Corpat company to see if I can get their attention too.

Cheers...

Mike

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:09:26 -0500, "Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm
wrote:

Almost four months after the Western Clave I recvd a call letting me know
that I owed $1900 for damages to the rental car (actually truck) I had
while

Some thoughts, in no particular order...

1. Call the shop that did the repair and see what they have to say on
matters such as age of damage, Alamo's diligence on picking up vehicle
upon completion, etc.


Not thinking they would cooperate much, but maybe I could run the stupid act
on them for some information.

2. Call Alamo's HQ and ask for (or demand) the pre-repair notification
to you, and your waiver of rights.


There was no pre-repair notification, is that required? And the waiver of
rights, where would I have waived them, somewhere in the original agreement,
or at the time of the non-existent pre-repair notification?

3. How and _where_ _exactly_ did you make the reservation? While
Wyoming will probably eventually control, if you created a contract in,
or any part of the contract, say, California, you can always make THEM
change the jurisdiction/venue/etc..


I made the reservation online in PA, with a reservation company incorporated
in Delaware.
I picked up the car in Wyoming, and it appears the owner of the car is:
Corpat, Inc in Missoula Montana. Don't think this factors in much, but the
company that contacted me, Purco, is in Spanish Fork, Utah, and the car was
repaired in Missoula, Montana.

It would be preferred if I could get them to change venue to my part of the
world (although it wouldn't give me an excuse to go back out to
Montana/Wyoming).

4. Is there a lawyer friend available to write a letter to Alamo? If
their case is the least bit, um, doubtful, this may end the matter. It
need not be much more than a general inquiry type of letter: please
provide a written report, copies of all contracts, reports, repair
orders, etc. to my office for review... However, realize that
"favors" like this can put obligations upon a lawyer, and that "your
friend, Bob Jones" and "Bob Jones, a lawyer" are two distinct entities.
Take any answer to a request for such "favors" as coming from the latter
first and former second.


Yes, a lawyer "friend" of sorts.. My brother-in-law. He's been cautiously
commenting when I bring it up with him. I think he may not want to get
deeply involved, a family/business conflict perhaps, but I may have to
corner him, at least to send that intial inquiry out on his letterhead. If
I push him he would probably help a bit more, but I get the feeling I may
cross the line along the way.

5. My suspicion is that no matter what "Alamo" actually believes, if
you are a big enough pain in the ass, "they'll" drop it as a matter of
economics.


I can be a PIA when I apply myself and I seem to be getting plenty of
ammunition from all of the righteous folks out here.

6. I use "" in 5., above, to indicate that likely as not, there is one
person making the decisions in this matter (possibly with a supervisor
signing off) rather than "company/corporation,", and you'll know much
more about WTF is going on if you can reach that one person.


Failed in my first attempt to get Purco to direct me past their
representative. Now that I know the owning company, this Corpat, Inc, I
have somewhere else to go to look for that point person.

IMO, you need to decide what controls for you - principles and time or
pocketbook, because one is going to have to give, and I suspect Alamo
can tell you EXACTLY at what point it's "oh, **** it" line will be
crossed. Someone said something about ins. cos. not paying hinkey
claims and they are correct - generally speaking, an ins. co. will spend
1000s to avoid 100s in bogus claims, but they have a economic incentive
to do so. Are you, right now, willing to commit to spend more than
250.00USD to fight? If not, you have found your line.


I'm in definite conflict here....budget is real tight right now and this is
out of budget costs. Each dollar spent now is 5 or 6 bucks lost from my
kids college fund, or 10 from my retirement fund, in the long run. But I
hate to give away my blood and sweat for something I did not do. I'll
proceed on with engaging my insurance company directly and see if they are
motivated. A letter from my lawyer brother-in-law is in order too.

HTH and good luck,
R

Thank You! Really!! I have some defined direction to take with all of the
advice, including your wise words.

BTW - If I remember correctly you are a collector of hunting books, is that
right? I think I may still have a few around if you are, and interested.
The Treasury of Hunting by Larry Kollar, and the Hunter's World by Charles
Waterman come to mind. There may be others, I think I may have Jack
O'Connor's shooter's guide/manual around too. I was holding onto that one
in case I had to learn the trade and take the rogue sniper route someday but
I better get rid of it before some Alamo rep gets into the crosshairs. let
me know..

"bruiser" wrote in message
...
Mike,

Sorry to hear about the Alamo ripoff.

You were very careful with that car and I don't recall you even leaving
the road with it. It was a 4X4 anyway, que no?

bruce h


Nope, it never left the road, not really out of choice more than time
(cardinal sin to let anything get in the way of fishing time during a
clave), but was better to it then I should have been as it turns out...

How's life treating you? gearing up for the San Juan Clave? I won't be
able make it, yet. I was contemplating making that my next new clave, but
my sister's maternity timeline disagreed. She's due in late January and
have a bunch of family coming into town.

Still looking for some wet wading gear, what kind of pants where you guys
using out there again? I'll never get caught on Slough Creek again with
shorts on.....

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:03:02 -0500, "Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:09:26 -0500, "Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm
wrote:

Almost four months after the Western Clave I recvd a call letting me know
that I owed $1900 for damages to the rental car (actually truck) I had
while

Some thoughts, in no particular order...

1. Call the shop that did the repair and see what they have to say on
matters such as age of damage, Alamo's diligence on picking up vehicle
upon completion, etc.

First and foremost, I'm not giving you legal advice, but rather, simply
making some observations. If you want legal advice, contact your
attorney or hire a lawyer. That said...

Not thinking they would cooperate much, but maybe I could run the stupid act
on them for some information.

Don't tell them who you are - but don't lie, either - simply call and
ask about "repair order xyz123 on a 2003 Ford Blahblah" or whatever.
They might not be able, however willing, to provide any info, but if
they are willing or at least able, it might be useful in dealing with
Alamo/Purco/whoever.

2. Call Alamo's HQ and ask for (or demand) the pre-repair notification
to you, and your waiver of rights.


There was no pre-repair notification, is that required? And the waiver of
rights, where would I have waived them, somewhere in the original agreement,
or at the time of the non-existent pre-repair notification?

I have no idea of what's required in all the states in which
laws/jurisdiction might be applicable or approachable. As to where you
_might_ have waived rights, it'd be in the contract you signed, in
separate verbiage referenced in the contract itself, or in codified law
referenced in the contract. My guess is that based solely on the
contract, you've got an uphill battle - you'll need to do all the
"proving" - but it also sounds, based solely on what you've said here,
that they may have not acted "properly" (not necessarily "illegally,"
just extra-contractually/procedurally).

It could be complicated and/or unclear, and both equal potential expense
for them (and you, too). Remember that civil law, most often, is a
matter of economics and many judges aren't interested in the parties'
"principles" in pure monetary disputes (esp. where there is no physical
injury or overtly, demonstrable outrageous conduct, such as a party
saying "I'll fight for years, no matter what it costs, for 3.00USD
because I know I'm right! Mickey D's give me a Filet O' Fish when I
ordered a Big Mac!" - this ties up the courts, amongst other things).
While it is certainly true that "they" can outspend you in this case, I
seriously doubt they want to, or want to spend more than a objective
economic decision would warrant, regardless of fault. Keep this in
mind.

3. How and _where_ _exactly_ did you make the reservation? While
Wyoming will probably eventually control, if you created a contract in,
or any part of the contract, say, California, you can always make THEM
change the jurisdiction/venue/etc..


I made the reservation online in PA, with a reservation company incorporated
in Delaware.
I picked up the car in Wyoming, and it appears the owner of the car is:
Corpat, Inc in Missoula Montana. Don't think this factors in much, but the
company that contacted me, Purco, is in Spanish Fork, Utah, and the car was
repaired in Missoula, Montana.

Well, that seems to be a lot of places, with the potential for a lot of
different laws - if someone were to start filing things, like small
claims cases, fraud claims, etc., in one potential jurisdiction
convenient to plaintiff and not so much for the defendant, however
tenuous that claim in that jurisdiction might be, it could get expense
to sort out for the party seeking another jurisdiction. Of course, if
it were too far a reach, sanctions could be in order against the
plaintiff. Just an observation(s), not a suggestion(s).

It would be preferred if I could get them to change venue to my part of the
world (although it wouldn't give me an excuse to go back out to
Montana/Wyoming).

4. Is there a lawyer friend available to write a letter to Alamo? If
their case is the least bit, um, doubtful, this may end the matter. It
need not be much more than a general inquiry type of letter: please
provide a written report, copies of all contracts, reports, repair
orders, etc. to my office for review... However, realize that
"favors" like this can put obligations upon a lawyer, and that "your
friend, Bob Jones" and "Bob Jones, a lawyer" are two distinct entities.
Take any answer to a request for such "favors" as coming from the latter
first and former second.


Yes, a lawyer "friend" of sorts.. My brother-in-law. He's been cautiously
commenting when I bring it up with him. I think he may not want to get
deeply involved, a family/business conflict perhaps, but I may have to
corner him, at least to send that intial inquiry out on his letterhead. If
I push him he would probably help a bit more, but I get the feeling I may
cross the line along the way.

You can easily cross the line from friendly advice to obligation on his
part if he allows you to. IMO, respect his decision if he elects to
keep you from doing so. My _guess_ is that a inquiry letter from him,
if it doesn't make them go away, will at least give y'all a good idea of
how far they plan to take it, _IF_ he is comfortable getting that far
involved. Remember, he has ethical obligations that prohibit him from
getting involved and then simply "abandoning" you, and he may not wish
to create these obligations. Many lawyers' advice would be that your
insurance company is better able to deal with them than you and your
attorney on your nickel, but in the end, it is _your_ call (and nickel).
If it were me, I'd talk to a claims specialist at your ins. co., the
claim itself and its possible impact on your premium/record so as to
make a fully-informed decision, but again, YMMV.

SNIP

BTW - If I remember correctly you are a collector of hunting books, is that
right? I think I may still have a few around if you are, and interested.
The Treasury of Hunting by Larry Kollar, and the Hunter's World by Charles
Waterman come to mind. There may be others, I think I may have Jack
O'Connor's shooter's guide/manual around too. I was holding onto that one
in case I had to learn the trade and take the rogue sniper route someday but
I better get rid of it before some Alamo rep gets into the crosshairs. let
me know..

Thanks, but I am more a collector by default than intent, and currently,
am not really in the active market for more books. Also, I have the
three you mention. If you are looking to liquidate some books, you
might look at abebooks.com or check with Walt Winter.

Again, HTH and good luck,
R

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:03:02 -0500, "Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm
wrote:


BTW - If I remember correctly you are a collector of hunting books, is
that
right? I think I may still have a few around if you are, and interested.
The Treasury of Hunting by Larry Kollar, and the Hunter's World by Charles
Waterman come to mind. There may be others, I think I may have Jack
O'Connor's shooter's guide/manual around too. I was holding onto that one
in case I had to learn the trade and take the rogue sniper route someday
but
I better get rid of it before some Alamo rep gets into the crosshairs.
let
me know..

Thanks, but I am more a collector by default than intent, and currently,
am not really in the active market for more books. Also, I have the
three you mention. If you are looking to liquidate some books, you
might look at abebooks.com or check with Walt Winter.

Again, HTH and good luck,
R



Not really looking to sell them right now, just had them hanging around,
taking up space on my bookshelf.

Thansk again for the insight,

Mike