*** Western Clave 2004 Fallout ****

wrote in news:7l40t0dom4qjnpetv8rr68broa701n8b7u@
4ax.com:

Are you, right now, willing to commit to spend more than
250.00USD to fight? If not, you have found your line.

HTH and good luck,
R


The first approach, and certainly a reasonable one, is to do whatever
your insurance company tells you do do. Ask your insurance company if
you are putting yourself on the line if you contest this charge.
Personally, I'd be very suprised if your insurer didn't demand thorough
documentation before payment.

If the insurance company says its OK (and ONLY if they say its OK), I'd
think it would be worth at least one polite registered letter, saying
that Mike didn't notice any damage, that the agent accepting the car
didn't point out any damage, and four months sounds like an unreasonable
amount of time for notification of a problem. Ask for a dated photo of
the damage, and the circumstances under which it was discovered. Was it
the renter after you who reported it when he turned the car in, saying
"It was like that when I got it"?

Be very specific about saying you'll be very happy to turn this over to
your insurance company for review if they can provide this documentation,
but you'll refer the matter to the appropriate State Attorney General's
office and the BBB if they don't. DO NOT, in any circumstance, suggest
that you will accept their terms if they provide documentation-- you
might be waiving some rights your insurance company would like to keep.

Also, in the future, ALWAYS do a walk-around the car before you get into
it, and if you see any damage, demand a new car, or specify that the
damage be entered into the rental contract. I've done it myself, and
sometimes for tiny dings. There's no telling what the rental agency is
going to make a stink about later.

Scott

"Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm wrote in message
...
Almost four months after the Western Clave I recvd a call letting me know
that I owed $1900 for damages to the rental car (actually truck) I had
while
I was attending the Western Clave this past year. There was no damage to
the truck, I am sure of that, but having a tough problem disputing the
claim. Seems as though Alamo wants to "pursue the claim" despite my
dispute,
and if I don't pay they will report it to the credit agencies.

I'm really at a loss of what to do, my insurance company will cover it
minus
the $250 deductible, but I really don't want to pay a cent since I did
not
damage the car. I don't understand how they could file a claim against
my credit if I am disputing their claim, and that they would have to take
me
to court before that.

Where is the requirement for proof here? Do they have to prove I did it,
or
do I have to prove I didn't?

I'm thinking that I could pay the claim for now, and initiate a civil case
against them, but it would be a hardship for me to prove I didn't do
anything, as I don't have any confirmation from Alamo when I dropped the
car
that it was damage free. Their process, at least in Jackson Hole, is to
do
that evaluation after it is dropped off and the customer is sent on their
way. They say they discovered the damage at this point, when they took
the
car back for this evaluation and routine prep for the next customer. All
of
their documentation is handwritten, so I don't know if they have
manipulated
the documentation, of if the damage occurred in the short time between
when
I dropped it off, and it was serviced (those are the only two
possibilities
I have thought of). I would hope it is the latter, that it's a honest
mistake by the company, but I beginning to think otherwise as I get no
where
with them. It may just be easier to pin some damage on someone from out of
town, since it would be very difficult from them to challenge the claim
remotely.

There is some other stuff that just doesn't add up either, like that they
waited almost 4 months to inform me of the damage (why wouldn't they do it
immediately?), and just as significant, that the car wasn't fixed until
September, 2 months after my rental.

Any advice would be welcome, but if nothing else, always make sure you
have
some kind of coverage on your rental care (which I did but would be
totally
screwed if not). Also, as a favor, next time you rent from Alamo, take
special care of that company's cars.

The only possible good to come out of this may be that if I do need to
show
up for court to win this dispute, I would much rather spend my money on
the
trip out there, then to give it to the low life scumbags at Alamo in
Jackson
Hole. This would mean I could get some more fishing time in the area.
Who
knows, maybe the case could time out for the Western Clave in 2005.

Mike


Have they sent you anything at all or did you just get a phone call? It
occurs to me that it might be profitable to periodically clean out the
dumpster at the Alamo place (or some other car rental place). I could go
through the paper and after 3 or 4 months send out a bunch of letters like
the one you got.
Even I could fake all the forms on a computer. I don't know what the return
percentage would be but I'd bet I could make more money than our friends in
Nigeria with all the bank connections.
Being that it could be a mail scam consider turn it over to the Attorney
General ( they have a fraud department here). If they have not sent
anything in the mail that could indicate that it's a scam and their afraid
of the postal inspectors.

"B J Conner" wrote in message
news:rzVAd.5884$Y57.5595@trnddc08...

"Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm wrote in message
...



Have they sent you anything at all or did you just get a phone call? It
occurs to me that it might be profitable to periodically clean out the
dumpster at the Alamo place (or some other car rental place). I could go
through the paper and after 3 or 4 months send out a bunch of letters like
the one you got.
Even I could fake all the forms on a computer. I don't know what the
return
percentage would be but I'd bet I could make more money than our friends
in
Nigeria with all the bank connections.
Being that it could be a mail scam consider turn it over to the Attorney
General ( they have a fraud department here). If they have not sent
anything in the mail that could indicate that it's a scam and their afraid
of the postal inspectors.



The have sent me enough documentation that it looks like it's legit, but
once the insurance company is engaged, we'll find out for sure. I can also
go to one of the contacts listed on their web-site. Reporting it to the
Attorney General may get their attention though....

Mike

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:57:11 GMT, "B J Conner"
wrote:

(snipped)

Have they sent you anything at all or did you just get a phone call? It
occurs to me that it might be profitable to periodically clean out the
dumpster at the Alamo place (or some other car rental place). I could go
through the paper and after 3 or 4 months send out a bunch of letters like
the one you got.
Even I could fake all the forms on a computer. I don't know what the return
percentage would be but I'd bet I could make more money than our friends in
Nigeria with all the bank connections.
Being that it could be a mail scam consider turn it over to the Attorney
General ( they have a fraud department here). If they have not sent
anything in the mail that could indicate that it's a scam and their afraid
of the postal inspectors.

B J, for the first time I really appreciate your mind. Twisty. Now
let's hope no one who hasn't already thought of it for himself gives
it a real life try. The amount is almost exactly right for the renter
to pay himself instead of turning it into the insurance company and
getting that much higher premiums every year. A lot of people would
never think twice and would just write a check and send it in.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:57:11 GMT, "B J Conner"
wrote:

(snipped)

Have they sent you anything at all or did you just get a phone call? It
occurs to me that it might be profitable to periodically clean out the
dumpster at the Alamo place (or some other car rental place). I could go
through the paper and after 3 or 4 months send out a bunch of letters like
the one you got.
Even I could fake all the forms on a computer. I don't know what the return
percentage would be but I'd bet I could make more money than our friends in
Nigeria with all the bank connections.
Being that it could be a mail scam consider turn it over to the Attorney
General ( they have a fraud department here). If they have not sent
anything in the mail that could indicate that it's a scam and their afraid
of the postal inspectors.

B J, for the first time I really appreciate your mind. Twisty. Now
let's hope no one who hasn't already thought of it for himself gives
it a real life try. The amount is almost exactly right for the renter
to pay himself instead of turning it into the insurance company and
getting that much higher premiums every year. A lot of people would
never think twice and would just write a check and send it in.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

hmmm....didn't indian joe drive that car? g as i recall, the vehicle
was in fine shape when we all departed for home. what is the claimed
damage?

contact the wyoming attorney general's office of consumer fraud (or
whatever passes for it out there... warren? john?) and file a complaint.
tell your insurance company it's a bogus complaint and that you won't
consent to payment without a full investigation and explanation.

they can settle without your consent, but you need to be on record with
them in order to fight premium increases...if they pay, they consider it
as your fault and your premium will increase if the payment exceeds a
designated amount...usually $750. get all the facts you can. i'm sure
several of us can sign an affidavit as to the condition of the body of
the car on the day you left...wasn't it an suv chevrolet or jeep kinda
thing? g

usually, at that level of claim, most folks and companies try to avoid
legal fees or extra costs. they count on you making the expedient
economic decision. but, some states grant attorney fees to consumers who
prevail in such cases. don't give in. it's likely they'll concede if
you persist and hang in there.

jeff

Mike Makela wrote:

Almost four months after the Western Clave I recvd a call letting me know
that I owed $1900 for damages to the rental car (actually truck) I had while
I was attending the Western Clave this past year. There was no damage to
the truck, I am sure of that, but having a tough problem disputing the
claim. Seems as though Alamo wants to "pursue the claim" despite my dispute,
and if I don't pay they will report it to the credit agencies.

I'm really at a loss of what to do, my insurance company will cover it minus
the $250 deductible, but I really don't want to pay a cent since I did not
damage the car. I don't understand how they could file a claim against
my credit if I am disputing their claim, and that they would have to take me
to court before that.

Where is the requirement for proof here? Do they have to prove I did it, or
do I have to prove I didn't?

I'm thinking that I could pay the claim for now, and initiate a civil case
against them, but it would be a hardship for me to prove I didn't do
anything, as I don't have any confirmation from Alamo when I dropped the car
that it was damage free. Their process, at least in Jackson Hole, is to do
that evaluation after it is dropped off and the customer is sent on their
way. They say they discovered the damage at this point, when they took the
car back for this evaluation and routine prep for the next customer. All of
their documentation is handwritten, so I don't know if they have manipulated
the documentation, of if the damage occurred in the short time between when
I dropped it off, and it was serviced (those are the only two possibilities
I have thought of). I would hope it is the latter, that it's a honest
mistake by the company, but I beginning to think otherwise as I get no where
with them. It may just be easier to pin some damage on someone from out of
town, since it would be very difficult from them to challenge the claim
remotely.

There is some other stuff that just doesn't add up either, like that they
waited almost 4 months to inform me of the damage (why wouldn't they do it
immediately?), and just as significant, that the car wasn't fixed until
September, 2 months after my rental.

Any advice would be welcome, but if nothing else, always make sure you have
some kind of coverage on your rental care (which I did but would be totally
screwed if not). Also, as a favor, next time you rent from Alamo, take
special care of that company's cars.

The only possible good to come out of this may be that if I do need to show
up for court to win this dispute, I would much rather spend my money on the
trip out there, then to give it to the low life scumbags at Alamo in Jackson
Hole. This would mean I could get some more fishing time in the area. Who
knows, maybe the case could time out for the Western Clave in 2005.

Mike

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:09:26 -0500, "Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm
wrote:

Almost four months after the Western Clave I recvd a call letting me know
that I owed $1900 for damages to the rental car (actually truck) I had while

Some thoughts, in no particular order...

1. Call the shop that did the repair and see what they have to say on
matters such as age of damage, Alamo's diligence on picking up vehicle
upon completion, etc.

2. Call Alamo's HQ and ask for (or demand) the pre-repair notification
to you, and your waiver of rights.

3. How and _where_ _exactly_ did you make the reservation? While
Wyoming will probably eventually control, if you created a contract in,
or any part of the contract, say, California, you can always make THEM
change the jurisdiction/venue/etc..

4. Is there a lawyer friend available to write a letter to Alamo? If
their case is the least bit, um, doubtful, this may end the matter. It
need not be much more than a general inquiry type of letter: please
provide a written report, copies of all contracts, reports, repair
orders, etc. to my office for review... However, realize that
"favors" like this can put obligations upon a lawyer, and that "your
friend, Bob Jones" and "Bob Jones, a lawyer" are two distinct entities.
Take any answer to a request for such "favors" as coming from the latter
first and former second.

5. My suspicion is that no matter what "Alamo" actually believes, if
you are a big enough pain in the ass, "they'll" drop it as a matter of
economics.

6. I use "" in 5., above, to indicate that likely as not, there is one
person making the decisions in this matter (possibly with a supervisor
signing off) rather than "company/corporation,", and you'll know much
more about WTF is going on if you can reach that one person.

IMO, you need to decide what controls for you - principles and time or
pocketbook, because one is going to have to give, and I suspect Alamo
can tell you EXACTLY at what point it's "oh, **** it" line will be
crossed. Someone said something about ins. cos. not paying hinkey
claims and they are correct - generally speaking, an ins. co. will spend
1000s to avoid 100s in bogus claims, but they have a economic incentive
to do so. Are you, right now, willing to commit to spend more than
250.00USD to fight? If not, you have found your line.

HTH and good luck,
R

"Mike Makela" ten.tsacmoc@alekamm wrote in message
...
Almost four months after the Western Clave I recvd a call letting me know
that I owed $1900 for damages to the rental car (actually truck) I had
while I was attending the Western Clave this past year. There was no
damage to the truck, I am sure of that, but having a tough problem
disputing the claim. Seems as though Alamo wants to "pursue the claim"
despite my dispute, and if I don't pay they will report it to the credit
agencies.

I'm really at a loss of what to do, my insurance company will cover it
minus the $250 deductible, but I really don't want to pay a cent since I
did not damage the car. I don't understand how they could file a claim
against my credit if I am disputing their claim, and that they would have
to take me to court before that.

Where is the requirement for proof here? Do they have to prove I did it,
or do I have to prove I didn't?

I'm thinking that I could pay the claim for now, and initiate a civil case
against them, but it would be a hardship for me to prove I didn't do
anything, as I don't have any confirmation from Alamo when I dropped the
car that it was damage free. Their process, at least in Jackson Hole, is
to do that evaluation after it is dropped off and the customer is sent on
their way. They say they discovered the damage at this point, when they
took the car back for this evaluation and routine prep for the next
customer. All of their documentation is handwritten, so I don't know if
they have manipulated the documentation, of if the damage occurred in the
short time between when I dropped it off, and it was serviced (those are
the only two possibilities I have thought of). I would hope it is the
latter, that it's a honest mistake by the company, but I beginning to
think otherwise as I get no where with them. It may just be easier to pin
some damage on someone from out of town, since it would be very difficult
from them to challenge the claim remotely.

There is some other stuff that just doesn't add up either, like that they
waited almost 4 months to inform me of the damage (why wouldn't they do it
immediately?), and just as significant, that the car wasn't fixed until
September, 2 months after my rental.

Any advice would be welcome, but if nothing else, always make sure you
have some kind of coverage on your rental care (which I did but would be
totally screwed if not). Also, as a favor, next time you rent from
Alamo, take special care of that company's cars.

The only possible good to come out of this may be that if I do need to
show up for court to win this dispute, I would much rather spend my money
on the trip out there, then to give it to the low life scumbags at Alamo
in Jackson Hole. This would mean I could get some more fishing time in
the area. Who knows, maybe the case could time out for the Western Clave
in 2005.

Mike



Have good news to report to report on this case, hopefully. Just got this
letter today from Purco, the company attempting to setle the claim for
Alamo:

Dear Michael Makela,

Upon further review of this claim we have decided to close the file in an
effort to retain good relations with you,
are valued customer. Your business is very important to us. No further
action is required from you,

Sincerely,

xxxxxxxx
Claim Specialist for Purco

Confirming with them that this absolves me from the claim with Alamo (not
just that Purco is washing their hands of it), but looks good. Thanks goes
out to everyone for all of the advice and help you all supplied.

Just to update what occurred. I went back and forth for a few weeks with
Purco before engaging my insurance company. They went back and forth with
Purco fighting the claim until Purco indicated that they were not going to
pursue a judgment in court against me, but that they would just pursue
collections, which would negatively affect my credit rating. My insurance
company would not pursue pas this point as they said my policy didn't cover
defense against credit issues.

I then submitted letters/complaint to everyone I could find that may assist
including the Attorneys General Offices of Wyoming and Utah, the local (to
Jackson Hole) Better Business Bureau, the BBB on a national level, Wyoming
division of banking, and the Wyoming Collection Agency Board. Within a week
I recvd this letter. I have a feeling it was the letter to the Attorneys
generals, or the Wyoming Collections Agency, but may never know.

Again, I thank everyone for your time and advice,

Cheers!!

Mike