O.T. a little - "Worms On A Hook Don't Suffer?"

I hope this isn't too off topic but it has to do with fishing. I found
this on "Reuters Oddly Enough". I wonder what PETA has to say about this?
John




OSLO (Reuters) - Worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain -- nor do
lobsters and crabs cooked in boiling water, a scientific study funded by
the Norwegian government has found.

"The common earthworm has a very simple nervous system -- it can be cut
in two and continue with its business," Professor Wenche Farstad, who
chaired the panel that drew up the report, said Monday.

Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms as fish bait
if the study had found they felt pain, but Farstad said "It seems to be
only reflex curling when put on the hook ... They might sense something,
but it is not painful and does not compromise their well-being."

The government called for the study on pain, discomfort and stress in
invertebrates to help in the planned revision of Norway's animal
protection law. Invertebrates cover a range of creatures from insects
and spiders to mollusks and crustaceans.

Farstad said most invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled
alive, do not feel pain because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big
brain to read the signals.

Some more advanced kinds of insects, such as honeybees which display
social behavior and a capacity to learn and cooperate, deserve special
care, she said.

"We have particular responsibility for animals that we have in our
custody. That is not a scientific opinion, but the ethical side of the
issue," Farstad said.

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:38:24 GMT, john wrote:

I hope this isn't too off topic but it has to do with fishing. I found
this on "Reuters Oddly Enough". I wonder what PETA has to say about this?

OSLO (Reuters) - Worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain -- nor do
lobsters and crabs cooked in boiling water, a scientific study funded by
the Norwegian government has found.

IMHO, not OT, and very interesting. Do you know the date of the
Farstad report?
Guy A
Ripley, TN

It said Monday & was dated today so I'm guessing it was released today.
here's the link I pulled off the news page I got it from, hope it helps.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...ddlyEnoughNews

John

Guy F. Anderson Sr. wrote:
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:38:24 GMT, john wrote:


I hope this isn't too off topic but it has to do with fishing. I found
this on "Reuters Oddly Enough". I wonder what PETA has to say about this?

OSLO (Reuters) - Worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain -- nor do
lobsters and crabs cooked in boiling water, a scientific study funded by
the Norwegian government has found.


IMHO, not OT, and very interesting. Do you know the date of the
Farstad report?
Guy A
Ripley, TN

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:28:51 GMT, john wrote:

It said Monday & was dated today so I'm guessing it was released today.
here's the link I pulled off the news page I got it from, hope it helps.

IMHO, not OT, and very interesting. Do you know the date of the
Farstad report?
Guy A

Thanks--but I followed the link to Reuters, read the article, and it
does not give a date for the Farstad report itself. Feb.7 is only
the date of the Reuters article. It appears that Reuters dropped the
journalistic ball here!

Guy A
Ripley, TN

O.T. a little - "Worms On A Hook Don't Suffer?"

Group: rec.outdoors.fishing.bass Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2005, 10:17pm From:
(Guy=A0F.=A0Anderson=A0Sr.)
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:28:51 GMT, john wrote:
It said Monday & was dated today so I'm guessing it was released today.
here's the link I pulled off the news page I got it from, hope it helps. =

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Thanks--but I followed the link to Reuters, read the article, and it
does not give a date for the Farstad report itself. Feb.7 is only the
date of the Reuters article. It appears that Reuters dropped the
journalistic ball here!
Guy A
Ripley, TN
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Guy, it was interesting for me also, so I did a google search on "Wenche
Farstad....Sentience and pain in invertebrates". Sorry, I couldn't copy
the link...webtv thing . But should be easy to find.

John K

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:22:44 -0600, (John Kerr) wrote:


Guy, it was interesting for me also, so I did a google search on "Wenche
Farstad....Sentience and pain in invertebrates". Sorry, I couldn't copy
the link...webtv thing . But should be easy to find.

Thanks, John--will Google Farstad today.
Guy A
Ripley, TN

Now John.. I hardly ever swear in print . . . but all ya gotta do is look at
a worm on a hook lol lol. . . . . ......... three words about this report

HORSE CAH CAH ! ! !

+ plus ya ever heard them lobsters screaming in a boiling pot ? I'd bet they
aint callin for a pizza !

--
God Bless America

Josh The Bad Bear

Lobster "screaming" is just gas escaping, like the noise a steam kettle
makes. Worms are stupid. Neither feels pain.... Ok, we get it.

I think the distinction being made in the research is "pain" versus "any
reflex to stimuli that humans normally associate with pain."

The argument PETA and their ilk advance to oppose sport fishing (and,
eventually, the killing of any animal) has been this: when we cause needless
pain (to fish or bait), we become cruel, brutalizing our victims and in
doing so debasing ourselves. This research was cited on cable TV yesterday
as scientific evidence that undermines PETA's position. The conclusion to
sportsfishermen is, if our bait and the fish we catch are incapable of "pain
awareness," then there's no problem with damaging them.

Even if that is true, I doubt it will make any impact on people who oppose
fishing. Regardless of whether the worm or crawdad feels pain as it's
impaled on a hook, a child who hooks the bait associates his own concept of
pain with his actions, and he attributes to the writhing animal his own pain
response. To proceed and repeat the bait-hooking performance, he must harden
or desensitize himself to causing pain in another creature -- whether or not
pain is actually being caused. Eventually, PETA posits, that lesson in how
to turn off "caring about the pain of others" can grow to the ability to
desensitize ourselves against the pain we cause in animals that do feel pain
and also in people.

Ultimately, there's no end to PETA's campaign. Since their argument about
harming other living organisms is based on perception and not reality, they
start with the low-hanging fruit (hurting animals for sport), and move to
more controversial targets (hurting animals for utilitarian reasons, like
meat, hides, horns, and hooves). If somehow they were to achieve their goal
of eliminating killing all animals (an impossible dream), it would not be
the end, for it has long been known that plants respond to stimuli, silently
"screaming" as brine shrimp are dumped to their deaths into a nearby pot of
boiling water, or as their own leaves or stems are clipped off. PETA would
just morph itself into PETL -- People for the Ethical Treatment of Life --
or something like that.

Joe
_________________________


Not that the critters aren't being harmed, but that they
"Joshuall" wrote in message
...
Now John.. I hardly ever swear in print . . . but all ya gotta do is look at
a worm on a hook lol lol. . . . . ......... three words about this report

HORSE CAH CAH ! ! !

+ plus ya ever heard them lobsters screaming in a boiling pot ? I'd bet they
aint callin for a pizza !

--
God Bless America

Josh The Bad Bear

No no no .... here's tha real deal upfront and straight.

For years "experts" have been telling us if we cut the line when we gut hook
a fish the hook will rust out in a few days or weeks or months. Remember
that mularky? Now we all know that's a load of crap and studies proved it.
But it made us all feel better about one of the simple downside risks to
fishing e.g. a few fish will pass on to the big pond in the sky.

Now some study someplace by some other "expert" has come up with another
theory. Just because an animals brain is small doesn't mean he can't feel
pain. Who says so ? Anybody ask him? Throw any living creature's ass ina
boiling pot of water or stick a spear through it several times and tell them
it dont hurt ! Baloney. This is just a matter of common sense not science.
Remember boys . . . science brought us the famous "The Earth's Flat so
beware of how far from Rome you plan your vacation" And . . ."Sun . .. we
don't need no stinkin Sun...WE'RE the center of the universe" Who needs this
kind of nonsense to overt any guilt trip or ward off any fear of Peta ?

Speaking of Peta. Well it's obvious they're a bunch of radical block
heads who will have as much effect on our sport as a fly on a cows ass (and
remember cows don't swat at every one of them that lands there) Again
common sense . . . How much revenue is generated by this industry in the
course of a year (just in this country)? Over a Billion a year in Illinois
alone and we're not anywhere near the top of that list. How many jobs depend
on the sport fishing industry. . . think about it. Boats, tackle , tourism
etc etc. Does anyone really think congress or any other state legislature
will give a white rats butt if a skewered worm can feel it ? Just a bunch of
hooey in my book. Peta is just the cause de jour as far as I'm concerned and
hardly worth the taps on these keyes when it comes to the issue of sports
fishing.

Causing pain is a downside of the sport. Sometimes fish get foul hooked,
sometimes anglers get hooked, sometimes people fall out of their boats. The
question is does the downside outweigh the upside and I'm bettin all of us
here are gonna say no. So. . .
fish with lures, don't foul hook and stay away from seafood dammit. g

p.s. Does anyone know of a study vis a vis if you throw a peta member in a
pot of boiling water what will happen?


God Bless America

Josh The Bad Bear

"Joshuall" wrote in message
...
No no no .... here's tha real deal upfront and straight.

For years "experts" have been telling us if we cut the line when we gut
hook a fish the hook will rust out in a few days or weeks or months.
Remember that mularky? Now we all know that's a load of crap and studies
proved it. But it made us all feel better about one of the simple downside
risks to fishing e.g. a few fish will pass on to the big pond in the sky.

Now some study someplace by some other "expert" has come up with another
theory. Just because an animals brain is small doesn't mean he can't feel
pain. Who says so ? Anybody ask him? Throw any living creature's ass ina
boiling pot of water or stick a spear through it several times and tell
them it dont hurt ! Baloney. This is just a matter of common sense not
science. Remember boys . . . science brought us the famous "The Earth's
Flat so beware of how far from Rome you plan your vacation" And . . ."Sun
. .. we don't need no stinkin Sun...WE'RE the center of the universe" Who
needs this kind of nonsense to overt any guilt trip or ward off any fear
of Peta ?

***It's not the size of the brain, it's the development of said brain as
well as how developed the central nervous system is. In the case of fish
and worms, the developement just isn't there. This has been proven in
several studies. I'll have to see if I can find them. In my case, I don't
need a study to ward off PETA ramblings.


Speaking of Peta. Well it's obvious they're a bunch of radical block
heads who will have as much effect on our sport as a fly on a cows ass
(and remember cows don't swat at every one of them that lands there)
Again common sense . . . How much revenue is generated by this industry in
the course of a year (just in this country)? Over a Billion a year in
Illinois alone and we're not anywhere near the top of that list. How many
jobs depend on the sport fishing industry. . . think about it. Boats,
tackle , tourism etc etc. Does anyone really think congress or any other
state legislature will give a white rats butt if a skewered worm can feel
it ? Just a bunch of hooey in my book. Peta is just the cause de jour as
far as I'm concerned and hardly worth the taps on these keyes when it
comes to the issue of sports fishing.

***Unfortunately, I'll have to disagree with you there. It's not just a
matter of revenue generated, it's political popularity. There's a lot of
anglers and hunters for certain, but then again, there's even more that
don't fish or hunt. It's those people that PETA are appealing to, the ones
that either don't fish/hunt or are ambivilent to the activity. If PETA can
use emotional response, whether there's any sound, scientific or rational
reasoning to sway people, they certainly will. If this emotional response
can bring those around to their cause (and that happens with alarming
frequency), then those are lost to fishing/hunting. And those people vote.
So, if a politician wants votes, he/she is going to attempt to appeal to the
largest voting block. That in turn translates to having a direct impact on
OUR activities.

A classic case in point (while off topic somewhat) is the spring black bear
hunt in Ontario Canada. The Spring Black Bear Hunt was a very popular
activity in Ontario, both with residents and with visiting hunters. It was
a great source of income for many Canadians and a great source of revenue
for the Province of Ontario. The figure that I heard was in excess of 30
million dollars each and every spring.

There was no sound biological or game management rational to stop the spring
bear hunt. Yet, a group of people that objected to that spring hunt put
enough political pressure on the "powers that be" to cancel the hunt. So,
even though Canadian wildlife biologists said that there were sufficient
numbers of bears to continue the hunt, that there was potential for harm to
the resources, that there would be increased human/bear conflicts, that many
would suffer from the consequences of eliminating the spring hunt, through
lost revenue and jobs, the "bunny huggers" got their way and there is no
longer any spring bear hunting in Ontario.

Now, several years after the ban, the consequences are being realized.
Black bear populations in Ontario are at record highs, human/bear
interactions and complaints are too at a record high. Research has found
that cub mortality is increasing due to male bears killing cubs, more cubs
are killed every spring from bears than from excited hunters!
Resorts/lodges/outfitters have gone out of business directly due to lost
spring revenue and hunters that used to come to Ontario every spring are
either not coming at all or have switched their base of operations to
Alberta or Manitoba where spring hunts are still a reality. Business loss
has been noted at motels, hotels, gas stations, grocery stores and to the
Fish & Wildlife agency due to lost license sales.

Even though all of this is documented, the bear hunt has not been reinstated
because the anti's still hold a large voting block.

So, don't think that just because fishing is big business, it will be left
alone. There are far too many examples existing today that prove otherwise.
Emotions and votes still rule!


Causing pain is a downside of the sport. Sometimes fish get foul hooked,
sometimes anglers get hooked, sometimes people fall out of their boats.
The question is does the downside outweigh the upside and I'm bettin all
of us here are gonna say no. So. . .
fish with lures, don't foul hook and stay away from seafood dammit. g

***You don't have a problem with that, but what about someone that is
sitting on the fence relating to fishing? I don't know of any sane
individual that likes to deliberately inflict pain. Someone that isn't sure
about fishing might become aligned against it if they think that it causes
pain, after all, who wants to inflict pain for fun?

Whenever I'm talking to someone that questions me as an angler, I always
make sure to, in a nice fashion, explain to these misguided individuals that
because a fish's brain/nervous system is not sufficiently developed, that
the reaction that a fish gives to being hooked is not pain, but reacting to
the tethering effect of being attached to a line.

We all have to be active spokesmen and advocates of our sport. Remember
that famous saying, "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large
groups." Never before in history has this been more true.
--
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com