Gudgeons and Goujons

"Lloyd George" wrote in message
...

and the last word on GOUJONS.

not yet !!

This deserves athread of it's own !

World angling dictionary (dead tree edition ) states

Goujon:
1.Small spiny-finned fish of coastal or brackish waters
having a large head and elongated tapering body having
the ventral fins modified as a sucker. Common Goby,
Millers Thumb, mudskipper, mudspringer. family Gobiidae

2.Gudgeon ( Gobio gobio )
Small slender European freshwater fish
often used as bait by anglers.
.............................
herein lies the confusion. although the fish to which the
French refer in cookery books, seems more likely to be #1.
above, it (they) are closely related to the true gudgeon
at #2. above. further confusion is introduced by cooks
in English speaking countries, who deduced that the fish
that the french were catching, were sole, or flounders,
although these are not cyprinid fish. even more confusing
is the fact that other members of the cyprinid genus
are also colloquially called "gudgeons" and indeed
are related to the true gudgeon, being in the same
genus.

The "shiner"
or common mackerel (Scomber scombrus),
the Spanish Mackerel (Scomber colias),
the chub mackerel 0r tinker (Scomber japonicus),
are all fish that are caught in coastal waters
at the mouths of rivers,and are members of
the cyprinid genus. and indeed even
sand eels (genus Ammodytes) could
make very good "goujons".

So although there is no doubt that the
etemology suggests that the derivation
of this cookery term, comes from the
fish name "Gudgeon", no-one is entirely
sure just which fish was being referred
to, in the original narratives.

However it seems unlikely to me that
what, in the UK, we refer to as a
Gudgeon ( Gobio gobio ), the freshwater
fish found in lakes, canals, etc. which
resembles a dace (Leuciscus leuciscus),
(and often mistaken for one ?) is the
goujon of cookery fame. That is not to say
that you couldn't cook one in that fashion.

French lexicons are very vague about
the actual fish involved, and it is worth
noting that the Cyprinidae family of
fishes is a very large one, and it does
include practically every UK coarse
fish, with the notable exeption of
the percoidean varieties.

However small percoidean fishes,
are often called gudgeons colloquially,
and a small blenny, or young bream,
may be mistaken for a "gudgeon".

some freshwater members of the Cyprinidae family:

Carp
Chub
Crucian Carp
Dace
Goldfish
Gudgeon
Minnow
Roach
Rudd
Tench

some members of the Percoidean family:

Bass
Bream
Goby
Gudgeon
Mullet
Perch
Pike
Sandfish
Sea Bass
Sea Bream
Sea Chub
Surfperch
Whiting
Wrasse

Take your pick of any / all of the above !

............ unless you know different ???

;-)

............. Lloyd

"Lloyd George" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd George" wrote in
message
...

and the last word on GOUJONS.

not yet !!

This deserves athread of it's own !

World angling dictionary (dead tree edition ) states

Goujon:
1.Small spiny-finned fish of coastal or brackish waters
having a large head and elongated tapering body having
the ventral fins modified as a sucker. Common Goby,
Millers Thumb, mudskipper, mudspringer. family Gobiidae

2.Gudgeon ( Gobio gobio )
Small slender European freshwater fish
often used as bait by anglers.
............................
herein lies the confusion. although the fish to which the
French refer in cookery books, seems more likely to be #1.
above, it (they) are closely related to the true gudgeon
at #2. above. further confusion is introduced by cooks
in English speaking countries, who deduced that the fish
that the french were catching, were sole, or flounders,
although these are not cyprinid fish. even more confusing
is the fact that other members of the cyprinid genus
are also colloquially called "gudgeons" and indeed
are related to the true gudgeon, being in the same
genus.

The "shiner"
or common mackerel (Scomber scombrus),
the Spanish Mackerel (Scomber colias),
the chub mackerel 0r tinker (Scomber japonicus),
are all fish that are caught in coastal waters
at the mouths of rivers,and are members of
the cyprinid genus. and indeed even
sand eels (genus Ammodytes) could
make very good "goujons".

So although there is no doubt that the
etemology suggests that the derivation
of this cookery term, comes from the
fish name "Gudgeon", no-one is entirely
sure just which fish was being referred
to, in the original narratives.

However it seems unlikely to me that
what, in the UK, we refer to as a
Gudgeon ( Gobio gobio ), the freshwater
fish found in lakes, canals, etc. which
resembles a dace (Leuciscus leuciscus),
(and often mistaken for one ?) is the
goujon of cookery fame. That is not to say
that you couldn't cook one in that fashion.

French lexicons are very vague about
the actual fish involved, and it is worth
noting that the Cyprinidae family of
fishes is a very large one, and it does
include practically every UK coarse
fish, with the notable exeption of
the percoidean varieties.

However small percoidean fishes,
are often called gudgeons colloquially,
and a small blenny, or young bream,
may be mistaken for a "gudgeon".

some freshwater members of the Cyprinidae family:

Carp
Chub
Crucian Carp
Dace
Goldfish
Gudgeon
Minnow
Roach
Rudd
Tench

some members of the Percoidean family:

Bass
Bream
Goby
Gudgeon
Mullet
Perch
Pike
Sandfish
Sea Bass
Sea Bream
Sea Chub
Surfperch
Whiting
Wrasse

Take your pick of any / all of the above !

........... unless you know different ???

;-)

............ Lloyd

At first I thought you were answering yourself. Then I spotted you have
posted the same thing twice.

What's the point of that?

"Lloyd George" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd George" wrote in
message
...

and

snip

I would like to try gudgeon (to eat) so on a more serious note what is the
best way to catch them ....... habitat, techniques etc.

Richard

All fish taste nice with lot's of Fricking Garlic!
CJ
"Richard" wrote in message
...

"Lloyd George" wrote in
message
...
"Lloyd George" wrote in
message
...

and

snip

I would like to try gudgeon (to eat) so on a more serious note what is the
best way to catch them ....... habitat, techniques etc.

Richard