Bamboo flyrod

A neighbor of mine gave me a bamboo fly rod that belonged to his father.
The name on the butt is KIRAK . It had been in his garage for 30 or 40 years
in Florida. He's
80 years old and he doesn't remember when his father got it . It's a 3 piece
rod with an extra tip that came in a wooden box.
I believe its japanese made.The top ferrule of the butt section is loose and
I would like to reglue it.
any advice as to glue ( I was thinking Gorilla glue ???) I would like to try
to use the rod but there
is no line weight specified on the rod Also should I varnish it before using
it ? I would appreciate
any information about the rod and any suggestions about caring for it and
type and weight of line.
Thanks
Norm Rose

On 5 Sep, 01:33, "nrosefl" wrote:
A neighbor of mine gave me a bamboo fly rod that belonged to his father.
The name on the butt is KIRAK . It had been in his garage for 30 or 40 years
in Florida. He's
80 years old and he doesn't remember when his father got it . It's a 3 piece
rod with an extra tip that came in a wooden box.
I believe its japanese made.The top ferrule of the butt section is loose and
I would like to reglue it.
any advice as to glue ( I was thinking Gorilla glue ???) I would like to try
to use the rod but there
is no line weight specified on the rod Also should I varnish it before using
it ? I would appreciate
any information about the rod and any suggestions about caring for it and
type and weight of line.
Thanks
Norm Rose

There were large numbers of these rods made. It may be fishable, or it
may not. Many dry out badly, and break when used. You can use epoxy
to glue the ferrule.

In order to estimate the line weight required, attach a fixed spool
reel loaded with nylon. Start casting small lead weights, increasing
the weight until the rod feels right. This is easiest to do if you tie
a small bag to the line and put the weights in the bag.

When it feels right, which is easy to determine, as it will cast
easily and a long way with the right weight, follow the instructions
below.

Too much weight and it will start to feel sluggish, and wont cast as
far. Too little and it wont cast very well either. This is very easy
to feel.

The optimum weight = the maximum distance.

Weigh the weight you are casting, divide it by three, and compare it
to the following table;

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9027/aftmow5.png

If you are casting one ounce, then 1 oz/ 3 = .333r oz you have a #5
weight.

If you are casting 1.5 ounces, then 1.5oz/ 3 = .5oz you have an #8
weight

If you want to be much more accurate then go here;

http://www.common-cents.info/

The article of main interest to you is this one;
http://www.common-cents.info/part3.pdf

EDIT A 10 ft cane fly rod is most likely to be in the #6 to #8 range
anyway, and most likely an #8.

Unfortunately the board software reformats the weight table. But it
should be clear that the last figures in the table lines are ounces. A
#5 weight will cast a full five weight line weighing 0.96 ounces.
Dividing by three gives you the (rough) weight of 30 ft of #5 line,
which is 0.32 ounces.

EDIT. Tried to reformat the table properly, but it wont work, so I
plugged the table in as a picture.

The original decal would probably have not been much use to you
anyway, as older cane rods use the old silk line system which was
dependent on line diameters, ( silk always weighs more or less the
same for the same diameter). As a matter of interest, you can find
them here;
http://www.orvis.com/detail.asp?subj...oup_id=&bhcp=1

TL
MC

Sorry, Orvis changes their site around quite often. You can get the
silk/AFTMA conversions here;

http://www.keone.com/aftma-silk.html

TL
MC

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:33:28 -0400, "nrosefl"
wrote:

A neighbor of mine gave me a bamboo fly rod that belonged to his father.
The name on the butt is KIRAK .

That isn't the name of the maker, it's the sound it'll make if you
actually hook up with it...

It had been in his garage for 30 or 40 years
in Florida. He's
80 years old and he doesn't remember when his father got it . It's a 3 piece
rod with an extra tip that came in a wooden box.
I believe its japanese made.

Seriously, it sounds like a Japanese post-war, er, "special" - cheap
"whitewood" box, shiny chrome and bright wrapping?

The top ferrule of the butt section is loose and
I would like to reglue it.

any advice as to glue ( I was thinking Gorilla glue ???)

Ferrule cement. Never use permanent cement on a rod. On the rod in
question, it probably won't matter, but if you got REALLY lucky and got
one of the few decent ones, it'd be a shame to do anything to it one
shouldn't do to a, um, well, real rod.

I would like to try to use the rod but there
is no line weight specified on the rod

Back when these were being made, there was no "weight" rating in
numbers, it was diameter expressed as letters, I (thin) to A (heaviest)
- long story short - all silk weighed the same, so it was diameter that
was key. Look for single letters on it, like H or E, or a 3-letter
group, like HDH or similar. Chances are it has no rating, or has some
arbitrary letter(s) on it, because it isn't a particular taper designed
for a particular line size/weight. Try a 5, gently.

Also should I varnish it before using it ?

If it needs it, sure. There's not really any way to hurt the value.

I would appreciate any information about the rod and any suggestions
about caring for it and type and weight of line.

What you have is , _almost_ certainly, a post-WW2 Japanese rod made to
separate naive gaijin soldiers from their money and, sorry to say, it's
likely not very well-made or much of a rod...but...every so often, one
of these is actually a decent enough _using_ rod. None have _any_ real
monetary or "collector" value. If you are an experienced caster, you'll
know pretty much instantly as to its casting quality. If you're a rank
novice, I'd recommend putting it aside and learning on something else.

As to care, if it is what it sounds like, no special care is needed.

TC,
R

Thanks
Norm Rose

"nrosefl" wrote in message
. ..
.The top ferrule of the butt section is loose and I would like to reglue
it.
any advice as to glue ( I was thinking Gorilla glue ???) I
Thanks
Norm Rose


I like that glue you melt....

john

Gorilla Glue tends to expand as it cures, it could distort or break an
old ferrule.

Traditional "Ferrule Cement" (the kind you melt), gets brittle. Use for
emergency temporary repairs in the field.

I'd go along with Mike's recommendation of a 2-part epoxy.


--
Pete
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete's Profile: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...php?userid=444
View this thread: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...ad.php?t=12432


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On 5 Sep, 14:59, Pete wrote:
Gorilla Glue tends to expand as it cures, it could distort or break an
old ferrule.

Traditional "Ferrule Cement" (the kind you melt), gets brittle. Use for
emergency temporary repairs in the field.

I'd go along with Mike's recommendation of a 2-part epoxy.

--
Pete

The gentleman is correct. Two-part epoxy is the safest option here.
This is in any case only "semi-permanent", as relatively mild heat
will also break epoxy bonds if desired. This is no problem on a cane
rod. Take care when removing the ferrule, as many of these rods had
pinned ferrules. A pin through the rod, and riveted into the ferrule
at either side. If it has a pin, see below. *

If it has no pin, remove the whippings, and work the ferrule slowly
loose. Remove all old glue by scarping with a blade held
perpendicular to the surfaces. Clean all surfaces thoroughly with
alcohol or similar,before gluing. I would go for twenty minute epoxy
here. Mix very thoroughly, smear the surfaces smoothly but
completely. Join as desired, ensuring that no excess epoxy squeezes
into the ferrule itself. Allow to set at least overnight, preferably
in a warm place like an airing cupboard or similar, ( this increases
epoxy bond strength). Although such epoxy sets up fairly quickly,
final bond strength is only reached after some time.

* If it has a pin, this of course must be removed. The simplest way
to do this is to file the head off one side, and carefully drive the
pin through. It is not necessary to replace the pin, as epoxy gives a
strong enough bond to prevent the ferrule moving much. Suction
ferrules on cane rods MUST ON NO ACCOUNT BE TWISTED WHEN dismantling
etc. Just pulled straight apart! one may use solder to fill the pin
holes in the ferrule.

Twisting rod sections will damage the rod.

Treat the male ferrule occasionally with white paraffin ( candle)
wax.

TL
MC

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:19:00 -0700, Mike
wrote:

On 5 Sep, 14:59, Pete wrote:
Gorilla Glue tends to expand as it cures, it could distort or break an
old ferrule.

Traditional "Ferrule Cement" (the kind you melt), gets brittle. Use for
emergency temporary repairs in the field.

I'd go along with Mike's recommendation of a 2-part epoxy.

--
Pete

The gentleman is correct. Two-part epoxy is the safest option here.
This is in any case only "semi-permanent", as relatively mild heat
will also break epoxy bonds if desired. This is no problem on a cane
rod.

Sorry, but no, you and he aren't necessarily correct. Not all two-part
epoxy is "breakable" with "mild heat." Some, in fact, is designed
specifically to withstand heat. IAC, most of these, um, JCPOS (Tim, a
new one for ya...) rods won't last long enough under use for ferrule
cement to get brittle, but if the OP does have one of the few decent
ones, he'll wish he had used something readily, certainly, and easily
reversible so as to be able to refinish the rod with minimum fuss (or
cost). Whatever your opinion(s) on epoxy v. ferrule cement, I think all
would agree that the various "wonderglues" out there - Gorilla, etc. -
are not suitable and whatever one uses, it should be safely reversible
until one is to the point of not shiving a git about reversibility.

Take care when removing the ferrule, as many of these rods had
pinned ferrules. A pin through the rod, and riveted into the ferrule
at either side. If it has a pin, see below. *

Just a comment - IME, _none_ had pinned ferrules (my guess is that it
was because that was simply more work on a rod that sold purely on
price), but on this, I'll readily concede there is no "standard," and
so, there may be 1000s out there with them. I only say this because it
might lead to confusing a decent, if not, superb old cane rod (for
example, many Gillums had pinned ferrules...) with a JCPOS. I have seen
the "combo kit" rods and casting rods with them (well, they looked more
like sewing pins inserted into the ferrules, but...), but not the 2-pc
fly rods. If it does have a pinned ferrule, the advice below is good.

If it has no pin, remove the whippings, and work the ferrule slowly
loose. Remove all old glue by scarping with a blade held
perpendicular to the surfaces. Clean all surfaces thoroughly with
alcohol or similar,before gluing. I would go for twenty minute epoxy
here. Mix very thoroughly, smear the surfaces smoothly but
completely. Join as desired, ensuring that no excess epoxy squeezes
into the ferrule itself. Allow to set at least overnight, preferably
in a warm place like an airing cupboard or similar, ( this increases
epoxy bond strength). Although such epoxy sets up fairly quickly,
final bond strength is only reached after some time.

* If it has a pin, this of course must be removed. The simplest way
to do this is to file the head off one side, and carefully drive the
pin through. It is not necessary to replace the pin, as epoxy gives a
strong enough bond to prevent the ferrule moving much.


Suction
ferrules on cane rods MUST ON NO ACCOUNT BE TWISTED WHEN dismantling
etc. Just pulled straight apart! one may use solder to fill the pin
holes in the ferrule.

And this advice should be considered __ABSOLUTE__ when dealing with cane
rods unless you _KNOW_ what you are doing.

I saw one JCPOS that had started to come apart and the sections/strips
could be "peeled" almost like a banana, with no real evidence of glue. I
even thought that maybe they had simply coated everything in shellac,
slapped it together wet, let it dry and wrapped it, and sold it - it was
an odd thing.


TC,
R

On 5 Sep, 17:23, wrote:
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:19:00 -0700, Mike
wrote:



On 5 Sep, 14:59, Pete wrote:
Gorilla Glue tends to expand as it cures, it could distort or break an
old ferrule.

Traditional "Ferrule Cement" (the kind you melt), gets brittle. Use for
emergency temporary repairs in the field.

I'd go along with Mike's recommendation of a 2-part epoxy.

--
Pete

The gentleman is correct. Two-part epoxy is the safest option here.
This is in any case only "semi-permanent", as relatively mild heat
will also break epoxy bonds if desired. This is no problem on a cane
rod.

Sorry, but no, you and he aren't necessarily correct. Not all two-part
epoxy is "breakable" with "mild heat." Some, in fact, is designed
specifically to withstand heat. IAC, most of these, um, JCPOS (Tim, a
new one for ya...) rods won't last long enough under use for ferrule
cement to get brittle, but if the OP does have one of the few decent
ones, he'll wish he had used something readily, certainly, and easily
reversible so as to be able to refinish the rod with minimum fuss (or
cost). Whatever your opinion(s) on epoxy v. ferrule cement, I think all
would agree that the various "wonderglues" out there - Gorilla, etc. -
are not suitable and whatever one uses, it should be safely reversible
until one is to the point of not shiving a git about reversibility.

Take care when removing the ferrule, as many of these rods had
pinned ferrules. A pin through the rod, and riveted into the ferrule
at either side. If it has a pin, see below. *

Just a comment - IME, _none_ had pinned ferrules (my guess is that it
was because that was simply more work on a rod that sold purely on
price), but on this, I'll readily concede there is no "standard," and
so, there may be 1000s out there with them. I only say this because it
might lead to confusing a decent, if not, superb old cane rod (for
example, many Gillums had pinned ferrules...) with a JCPOS. I have seen
the "combo kit" rods and casting rods with them (well, they looked more
like sewing pins inserted into the ferrules, but...), but not the 2-pc
fly rods. If it does have a pinned ferrule, the advice below is good.



If it has no pin, remove the whippings, and work the ferrule slowly
loose. Remove all old glue by scarping with a blade held
perpendicular to the surfaces. Clean all surfaces thoroughly with
alcohol or similar,before gluing. I would go for twenty minute epoxy
here. Mix very thoroughly, smear the surfaces smoothly but
completely. Join as desired, ensuring that no excess epoxy squeezes
into the ferrule itself. Allow to set at least overnight, preferably
in a warm place like an airing cupboard or similar, ( this increases
epoxy bond strength). Although such epoxy sets up fairly quickly,
final bond strength is only reached after some time.

* If it has a pin, this of course must be removed. The simplest way
to do this is to file the head off one side, and carefully drive the
pin through. It is not necessary to replace the pin, as epoxy gives a
strong enough bond to prevent the ferrule moving much.
Suction
ferrules on cane rods MUST ON NO ACCOUNT BE TWISTED WHEN dismantling
etc. Just pulled straight apart! one may use solder to fill the pin
holes in the ferrule.

And this advice should be considered __ABSOLUTE__ when dealing with cane
rods unless you _KNOW_ what you are doing.

I saw one JCPOS that had started to come apart and the sections/strips
could be "peeled" almost like a banana, with no real evidence of glue. I
even thought that maybe they had simply coated everything in shellac,
slapped it together wet, let it dry and wrapped it, and sold it - it was
an odd thing.

TC,


They probably dipped it in champagne and Caviar, and the shock was
more than it could stand.

Think I´ll have a beer.

MC

"nrosefl" wrote in message
. ..
A neighbor of mine gave me a bamboo fly rod that belonged to his father.
The name on the butt is KIRAK . It had been in his garage for 30 or 40
years in Florida. He's
80 years old and he doesn't remember when his father got it . It's a 3
piece rod with an extra tip that came in a wooden box.
I believe its japanese made.The top ferrule of the butt section is loose
and I would like to reglue it.
any advice as to glue ( I was thinking Gorilla glue ???) I would like to
try to use the rod but there
is no line weight specified on the rod Also should I varnish it before
using it ? I would appreciate
any information about the rod and any suggestions about caring for it and
type and weight of line.
Thanks
Norm Rose


Greetings Norm,
about the glue, I would talk to Jerry Kustich or Glenn Brackett.of
Sweetgrass Rods. They were the original Boo Boys from R.L. Winston. I
believe they will
send you a small bottle of glue for your bamboo rod, they're pretty good
about
things like that. There phone no. is (406) 684-5440 alt no. (406) 782-5552
MT. time. Or email them your post:

About your rod. It's probably made by the Nippon Co. in the mid 1940's
right after the WWII. They were sold by the hotcakes to the servicemen
returning
to port. Does it have a Fuji Mountain sticker on there? The value of the
rod
today with case would be around $10.oo-$20.oo if even that.

A good resource would be the book: "Casting a Spell" by George Black.
-tom