OT Ping LarryL

I hope you don't mind addressing a dog training problem that has
me befuddled.

Kaylin was doing water retrieves yesterday. I put her in a sit-stay,
throw the dummy on the water, give her the OKAY and she bolts into
the pond, swims to the dummy and brings it back. She's been doing
this reliably for awhile now. Until yesterday.

There were a pair of ducks on the pond. Everything went according to
plan until she got the dummy in her mouth. As soon as she got the
dummy she started swimming hell bent for leather towards the ducks.
She chased them into the air, got out on the other side of the pond,
dropped the dummy and then chased them on foot until I finally got
her back with a recall.

I don't want to discourage an interest in birds but obviously I've
got a problem. Any advice ?

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
I hope you don't mind addressing a dog training problem that has
me befuddled.

Kaylin was doing water retrieves yesterday. I put her in a sit-stay,
throw the dummy on the water, give her the OKAY and she bolts into
the pond, swims to the dummy and brings it back. She's been doing
this reliably for awhile now. Until yesterday.

There were a pair of ducks on the pond. Everything went according to
plan until she got the dummy in her mouth. As soon as she got the
dummy she started swimming hell bent for leather towards the ducks.
She chased them into the air, got out on the other side of the pond,
dropped the dummy and then chased them on foot until I finally got
her back with a recall.

I don't want to discourage an interest in birds but obviously I've
got a problem. Any advice ?

--
Ken Fortenberry


Well, envision a situation like this one. You knock down a duck, the most
prized in your area, say a bull Sprig. It's crippled but K manages to
catch it and is returning with it. As will happen often, you'll find, her
swimming will attract a passing flock and they decoy to her and as they turn
to come back, you pop one. Kay drops the Sprig and swims over to get the,
now more exciting, dead Spoony that just dropped. The Sprig she dropped
is revived enough to dive and you never see it again.

This scenario is not far fetched, and is presented as motivation.

Professional trainers are very serious about commands, 'here' means 'here'
and not "come when you feel like it, or if nothing more interesting is
happening" Pro retriever trainers also force fetch all retrievers and
teach them that retrieving is an ordered task, not just a game. Pro
trainers are also ( or should be ) emotionally very detached and while
'firm' are never angry, and are always open to trying something different if
the first effort shows signs of creating problems .... they also know that
training, to high standards takes lots of time ... it's that knowledge that
makes them appear 'patient'


MOST dog owners do NOT have a relationship with their dog that allows that
owner to tackle problems in a "because I say so, and I don't care if you
like it or not" manner.

Ken, there IS risk involved if you get serious about making her come off of
the ducks ( and I won't even hint at an actual 'how' of doing that ...my way
would take weeks of preparation and would NOT suit you ;-) But, THE most
basic command is 'here' or whatever word you use. As I always tell
clients .. "Even if the SOB won't do anything else right, he should come
when he's called .... if only so you can put him up and stop being
embarrassed by him." G


I suggest you work on 'here' in an ordered way with planned distractions and
planned corrections if she gives in to those distractions. Use your
imagination. Most dogs will use 'having to pee' as and excuse to wait to
obey ... they go all night just fine, they can come when told to, THEN be
released to pee. Having a helper set down a bowl of tasty treats near a
hungry dog as dad calls her is likely to see her give dad the doggy middle
toe ... etc. etc.... make stuff up, 40 years later I 'invent' new things all
the time, it's what makes the biz fun. Oh, as she is returning with one
bumper, make a fuss ( or have a helper do so ) 'heah, heah, heah' and throw
a different one ... teach her she is to ALWAYS continue to deliver the first
one, THEN she will be allowed to get the fresher one ... ( using birds, this
is a commonly used hunt test 'test' ... I believe they call it a 'bulldog'
.... i.e. it is perceived as simulating real hunting conditions well .... but
hunt tests weren't my thing and I can't remember ever seeing it in a trial )

I could go on for pages and pages ... but less is likely better, SINCE, your
creativity and your persistence and your determination are the key. Let me
repeat, I won't comment on actual techniques or tools to 'make' her come
when she rather not, suit yourself. But, consider another thing I deeply
believe ... 'teaching' ends and 'training' begins when Fido knows what we
want, but chooses to not do it because of his own desires ... 'taught' dogs
are a dime a dozen, 'trained' dogs are pretty rare. YOU control ( if
you're wise), the level of distraction making it 'doable' for her, but still
tempting enough to require 'training' Don't make the most common human
error and wait until you're angry to try 'training' .... indeed 'training'
can only be down well with a very cool head.

Larry L ( who will provide two of his favorite doggie quotes)

Delmar Smith ( one the great pointer trainers ) "A man can learn to control
any animal if he first learns to control himself."

Rex Carr ( the best 'trieiver trainer in history, my mentor ) "Repetition,
repetition, repetition, repetition. Now, .... repeat that."

"Larry L" wrote

believe ... 'teaching' ends and 'training' begins when Fido knows what we
want, but chooses to not do it because of his own desires ...


I sent the first post then went out to work a few dogs ( I still take a few
for old clients and for "field trial basics' only ) I have three here
now, one belongs to a man that worked as a pro trainer, very successfully,
for years, all belong to people that have owned and campaigned Field
Champions and hope to be successful in trials with these pups. I point
this out, NOT to somehow toot my own horn ... rather because I do 'basics'
for these very experienced people, it has become my specialty, a specialty
important enough that very knowledgeable people are still willing to pay
lots of money to have it done by someone else.


Now reread the quoted passage above ... understand MY distinction between
using the words 'teach' and 'train'


"Basics" is 'teaching' the dog how he will be 'trained.' And basics is
important enough that over the years I've had many, many pros and very
advanced amatuers pay me to do the work.

///// important stuff approaching ////


Problems that develop from 'training' almost always are the result of poor
'basics' ... i.e. the dog receives a correction he has not been TAUGHT to
understand and accept as the deserved consequence of failure to obey. ALL
intended corrections should be TAUGHT in very controlled conditions and NOT
used, 'in the field,' until it's VERY clear that FIDO understands the
correction, it's meaning, and how to respond to that correction in a
positive way.


///////////// end stuff ////////////


So, IF a dog is properly 'conditioned' to a correction it can be applied in
nearly any situation with little risk of bad side effects. IF not, that
correction can be the start of terrible problems. I can take a dog and
call him off birds in extremely tempting situations, using correction as
needed that is 'severe' with almost zero risk BECAUSE he will understand and
accept that correction. The same animal given a very mild correction he
wasn't 'conditioned' to understand could easily decide to simply avoid all
birds for life.


UM, another definition for 'basics' .... I just made up ... "Teaching the
dog the language and tools we will use to teach him all the rest of his
tasks, for life." So, make sure Fido undersands not only the command,
but just as importantly, any correction that might be used ... make sure of
it LONG before using that correction 'in the field.'

On 28-Mar-2009, "Larry L" wrote:

arry L" wrote

believe ... 'teaching' ends and 'training' begins when Fido knows what
we
want, but chooses to not do it because of his own desires ...

Larry

We have a German Short Haired Pointer bitch a Border Collie male and we are
getting a standard poodle pup today - female
My daughter who lives w her family on our propery has 2 lab pups
They all run loose as we all have dog doors.
My border collie is good w the horses

I will trade you some training for some GREAT fishing in NW Montana some
time.

Fred

Fred

"Fred" wrote


I will trade you some training for some GREAT fishing in NW Montana some
time.



Thanks for the offer, but I never 'trade' for my services. I'm not
speaking to you, specifically, Fred ... rather to 'the world' ...... and
not even really about me, but rather the business limitations of barter.

I don't think you were around here back in the days when Warren and Cyli (
and many others, much missed ) were about but I once had a e-mail
conversation with those two about Warren ( a fishing guide ) 'trading' and
'giving away' his services. To me it is unprofessional, and conveys the
message that those services have less value than they really do. I speak,
here, as a businessman, and believe that a BIG part of success in any
service biz ( especially one where the expertise of a specific individual is
being sold ) depends on the person providing the service having full
confidence in the value of that service, and displaying that confidence by
demanding getting well paid.

Now, I'll broadly answer a question, if I have the time and inclination, and
am glad to do so ... but if I touch the dog I get paid G

I do believe in barter and just yesterday traded a whole $hitpot of truck
accessories for my new truck straight across for my old truck ... he got
the better deal, but I don't care. IMHO, barter with goods makes sense,
with services ... no.


Larry L ( who once turned down Warren's offer to guide me 'for a few beers'
since I was roffian .... BECAUSE I valued his services more than that, even
if he didn't ... not sure he ever really understood that )

Larry L wrote:
...
Now, I'll broadly answer a question, if I have the time and inclination, and
am glad to do so ... but if I touch the dog I get paid G ...

Well, I'm damn glad you take the time to answer my questions.
I'm starting to think I should have turned Kaylin over to a
pro months ago. I have no desire to do field trials with her
but I do want a well-trained, reliable gun dog in the duck
blind and in the pheasant field. I thought we had the basics
down pat, but those two ducks yesterday disabused me of that
silly notion.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On 28-Mar-2009, "Larry L" wrote:

Larry L ( who once turned down Warren's offer to guide me 'for a few
beers'
since I was roffian .... BECAUSE I valued his services more than that,
even
if he didn't ... not sure he ever really understood that )

I do understand what you mean and I have no problems w it
I do the same w my consulting biz

But the offer to fish NW Montana stands w or w/o the training
we really don't need the training as I don't hunt esp birds amd my pointer
is a pet as are my daughter's abs
My wife and dughter wan to breed the labs possibly w the new standard poodle
(we pick April up today)
I hope they build a run in the barn


Fred

On Mar 28, 1:36*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

I don't want to discourage an interest in birds but obviously I've
got a problem. *Any advice ?

--
Ken Fortenberry

Shoot it, and then have a cry on here about how your dog died.

On 28-Mar-2009, wrote:

Shoot it, and then have a cry on here about how your dog died.

Sooner you Mike.
Take that anyway you want it!
That is a stupid thing to say and you are a lowlife mofo scumbag

Fred

Ken Fortenberry wrote:
I hope you don't mind addressing a dog training problem that has
me befuddled.

Kaylin was doing water retrieves yesterday. I put her in a sit-stay,
throw the dummy on the water, give her the OKAY and she bolts into
the pond, swims to the dummy and brings it back. She's been doing
this reliably for awhile now. Until yesterday.

There were a pair of ducks on the pond. Everything went according to
plan until she got the dummy in her mouth. As soon as she got the
dummy she started swimming hell bent for leather towards the ducks.
She chased them into the air, got out on the other side of the pond,
dropped the dummy and then chased them on foot until I finally got
her back with a recall.

I don't want to discourage an interest in birds but obviously I've
got a problem. Any advice ?


Hey, it could be worse!

http://pit.dirty.ru/dirty/1/2009/01/...f6968b7658.jpg

or

http://tinyurl.com/a37qek



Russell