flyfishing from the canoe

riverman wrote:
Hey, a thread with my name on it!

Yeah, you can replace the center THWART with a seat. But as others
have noted, you actualy don't want to be in the exact center of the
canoe when you paddle, as the boat will tend to pivot rather than move
forward when you stroke. Unfortunately, the center thwart DOES want to
be in the exact center, so replacing it with a seat is at
cross-purposes. For this reason, the middle thwart seat in 3-seat
canoes is actually for a third person, not a solo paddler. Even
traditional kayakers sit a little behind the midpoint.

Well, a lot of that is not necessarily so. My canoe is primarily a solo and
has the main seat very near the center. I have no trouble keeping it on a
straight track and have difficulty taking a sharp turn without heeling it
over (due to the hull shape). There are a bow and stern seat but the hull
is too narrow for big people to use them comfortably for a long time (they
were perfect for my kids though). Whether of not a canoe pivots is as much
a factor of the paddle stroke, the amount of keel, the amount of rocker, and
whether you have the boat heeled over (assuming you have little or no
rocker). If the seat is far off the center point the boat will tend to
pivot more because you are lifting the bow (or stern) out of the water so
you have less drag at that end. I've seen Timmaay do that many times.
Especially the time he had his anchor outg.

correct stuff snipped
--riverman

--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

Stan Gula wrote:
riverman wrote:
Hey, a thread with my name on it!

Yeah, you can replace the center THWART with a seat. But as others
have noted, you actualy don't want to be in the exact center of the
canoe when you paddle, as the boat will tend to pivot rather than
move forward when you stroke. Unfortunately, the center thwart DOES
want to be in the exact center, so replacing it with a seat is at
cross-purposes. For this reason, the middle thwart seat in 3-seat
canoes is actually for a third person, not a solo paddler. Even
traditional kayakers sit a little behind the midpoint.

Well, a lot of that is not necessarily so. My canoe is primarily a
solo and has the main seat very near the center. I have no trouble
keeping it on a straight track and have difficulty taking a sharp
turn without heeling it over (due to the hull shape). There are a
bow and stern seat but the hull is too narrow for big people to use
them comfortably for a long time (they were perfect for my kids
though). Whether of not a canoe pivots is as much a factor of the
paddle stroke, the amount of keel, the amount of rocker, and whether
you have the boat heeled over (assuming you have little or no
rocker). If the seat is far off the center point the boat will tend
to pivot more because you are lifting the bow (or stern) out of the
water so you have less drag at that end. I've seen Timmaay do that
many times. Especially the time he had his anchor outg.

Did I mention this was my first canoe?
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

All true enough. I had recently heard that the keel actually plays a
smaller role than previously thought, other than providing a convenient
wear-through point, but I abandoned keels long ago so I wouldn't know
much about them. I like to keep it flat when I crash into some sleeper
rock just below the surface.

But even in your solo boat, I bet if you look closely, the seat is
arranged so that, when your arms are extended forward, the PADDLE is at
the midpoint, and your butt is about 8" or a foot behind the midline.
If the seat was at the midline, you'd in effect be dragging the boat
behind you when you paddled rather than pushing it ahead. This might
not be quite so pronounced in a performance playboat, as they expect
the paddler to be doing reverse draws as much as forward strokes.

Even considering the keel, rocker or heeling, the most pronounced thing
that effects a canoes pivoting is how far out you place your blade when
take your stroke. Powerful turning strokes are those sweeping low brace
strokes, which put the blade 3 or 4 feet out from the midline and sweep
it along a radius. Unbeknownst to them, most beginners who keep their
grip hand in front of their face are executing a sweep stroke every
time they think they are paddling forwards. In my case, my grip hand is
actually farther off board than my lower hand, and the blade is beneath
the boat when I am paddling.

As for keeling...next time you are paddling, try an experiment, I know
it will suprise you. Get a good forward head of steam with the hull
flat and level, take the paddle out, then shift your weight quickly to
one side and heel it over. Watch what the boat does...its not what you
expect.

What boat do you have, BTW?

--riverman

riverman wrote:
As for keeling...next time you are paddling, try an experiment, I know
it will suprise you. Get a good forward head of steam with the hull
flat and level, take the paddle out, then shift your weight quickly to
one side and heel it over. Watch what the boat does...its not what you
expect.

I'm assuming you mean heeling, not keeling. I think I have a pretty good
feel for the relatioship between surface area and dragg. As to your point
about keels, I think we agree that they mostly are good for wearing out and
hanging up (and keeping the halves of an aluminum hull together). The same
thing is true of the semi-V hulls like the ones Mad River uses.

What boat do you have, BTW?

A Wenonah Solo Plus (http://www.wenonah.com). I would send you a better
link except their web site is all frames and they won't let you link to a
sub page. Note that the narrow hull which makes flyfishing from the center
seat easy. This is a very stable boat despite the narrowness. I have lent
this to people who expect canoes to be tippy and they are soon converts.
--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps

Stan Gula wrote:
riverman wrote:
As for keeling...next time you are paddling, try an experiment, I
know
it will suprise you. Get a good forward head of steam with the hull
flat and level, take the paddle out, then shift your weight quickly
to
one side and heel it over. Watch what the boat does...its not what
you
expect.

I'm assuming you mean heeling, not keeling. I think I have a pretty
good
feel for the relatioship between surface area and dragg. As to
your point
about keels, I think we agree that they mostly are good for wearing
out and
hanging up (and keeping the halves of an aluminum hull together).
The same
thing is true of the semi-V hulls like the ones Mad River uses.

Um, right...heeling. And I'm sure you meant 'relationship', not
'relatioship' bseg. Anyway, other than the expected increased glide
factor, the boat does something else suprising. The footprint of a
heeled boat is not quite symmetrical...the side along the tumblehome is
almost straight, while the side along the keel is more rounded, making
a sort-of wing shaped footprint. If you suddenly heel over a boat that
is moving forward, it will slip abeam. Try it.

I never really could quantify the difference in behavior between
shallow-V hulls, flat bottomed and rounded hulls. I knew they handled
differently, but the effect all seemed to 'mix in' with other handling
characteristics, so I could not clearly isolate what caused what, like
all those ads seem to. But I do know that I like the behavior of the MR
Explorer (with its shallow V) much more than any other boat I have
paddled, and that little V in the floor makes it easier to bail out the
very last few drops of water that come on board.

What boat do you have, BTW?

A Wenonah Solo Plus (http://www.wenonah.com). I would send you a
better
link except their web site is all frames and they won't let you link
to a
sub page. Note that the narrow hull which makes flyfishing from the
center
seat easy. This is a very stable boat despite the narrowness. I
have lent
this to people who expect canoes to be tippy and they are soon
converts.

Very nice boat! I have a BlueHole 17A....a real riverpig when its
empty, but a very useful flat bottomed boat if you have a load of
camping gear, want to stand and pole or fish, or maybe throw a formal
dance with a few friends.

--riverman

Stan Gula wrote:
riverman wrote:
As for keeling...next time you are paddling, try an experiment, I
know
it will suprise you. Get a good forward head of steam with the hull
flat and level, take the paddle out, then shift your weight quickly
to
one side and heel it over. Watch what the boat does...its not what
you
expect.

I'm assuming you mean heeling, not keeling. I think I have a pretty
good
feel for the relatioship between surface area and dragg. As to
your point
about keels, I think we agree that they mostly are good for wearing
out and
hanging up (and keeping the halves of an aluminum hull together).
The same
thing is true of the semi-V hulls like the ones Mad River uses.

Um, right...heeling. And I'm sure you meant 'relationship', not
'relatioship' bseg. Anyway, other than the expected increased glide
factor, the boat does something else suprising. The footprint of a
heeled boat is not quite symmetrical...the side along the tumblehome is
almost straight, while the side along the keel is more rounded, making
a sort-of wing shaped footprint. If you suddenly heel over a boat that
is moving forward, it will slip abeam. Try it.

I never really could quantify the difference in behavior between
shallow-V hulls, flat bottomed and rounded hulls. I knew they handled
differently, but the effect all seemed to 'mix in' with other handling
characteristics, so I could not clearly isolate what caused what, like
all those ads seem to. But I do know that I like the behavior of the MR
Explorer (with its shallow V) much more than any other boat I have
paddled, and that little V in the floor makes it easier to bail out the
very last few drops of water that come on board.

What boat do you have, BTW?

A Wenonah Solo Plus (http://www.wenonah.com). I would send you a
better
link except their web site is all frames and they won't let you link
to a
sub page. Note that the narrow hull which makes flyfishing from the
center
seat easy. This is a very stable boat despite the narrowness. I
have lent
this to people who expect canoes to be tippy and they are soon
converts.

Very nice boat! I have a BlueHole 17A....a real riverpig when its
empty, but a very useful flat bottomed boat if you have a load of
camping gear, want to stand and pole or fish, or maybe throw a formal
dance with a few friends.

--riverman