Country music

wrote:

It's Fishkill, and PETA knew exactly where the name
came from. PETA's overriding priority is free publicity.
They can almost always count on getting it, and
guys with cheap-shot political agendas like yours can
always be counted on to contribute to the cause.

Are you the poster formerly known as Glenn Popoff ?

You have a very similar sweetness in your demeanor.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Dave LaCourse wrote in
:


It was probably named way back when New York was called New
Amsterdam.That would be old work, Ishudthink. There are several
"kill" rivers besides Fish. Battenkill comes to mind, and I'm sure
there are others.


John Merwin says something about the etymology of the word "kill" in
his book "The Battenkill" (quite a bit more than you'd think you
subject would merit, IIRC). He also spends a little time on the history
of the proper noun "Battenkill" and its pedantic twin "Batten Kill". I
must dig it out and reread (it's getting to be that time of year of
again anyway). I'll post back if it adds to the thread.

Wolfgang schreef:
"Herman Nijland" wrote in message
. ..

To answer both your and rw's question in one post - yes, it is archaic,
I've never heard of it being used in modern language. Being Dutch, I hope
that means something :-). May be it means the Dave is very very much older
than me g.
I had a quick google, and it does turn out that Dave was more or less
right - it is a very old word for stream. However - I can't imagine a
modern Dutch publication using the word 'kill' or 'kil' for stream,
because it wouldn't be understood in its right meaning. For modern read
anything younger than, say, at least fifty years.

No surprises there. Thanks, Herman. One more question though, or rather a
repetition to be more precise (and with a short preface), if you don't mind.
It's well known among people who study languages that names in general, and
place names in particular, are a valuable repository of archaic forms. Even
if "kil" (however spelled) is no longer in common use as a synonym for
"stream" (as is clearly the case here), one expect to see signs of its
former use dotted about the landscape (as it is here in areas settled by the
Dutch). Anything come to mind?

Wolfgang

Not so much as you would expect from a water-rich environment
I know of a place called 'Sluiskil', which is water-related, but that's about
the only one that pops up. Dave gave a better example with the Battenkill (which
is even on-topic :-)).

Herman

"herman Nijland" wrote in message
...
Wolfgang schreef:

Even if "kil" (however spelled) is no longer in common use as a synonym
for "stream" (as is clearly the case here), one expect to see signs of
its former use dotted about the landscape (as it is here in areas settled
by the Dutch). Anything come to mind?

Wolfgang

Not so much as you would expect from a water-rich environment
I know of a place called 'Sluiskil', which is water-related, but that's
about the only one that pops up.


Thanks again, Herman. I just did a brief search online and found one other
example, the "Dordtsche Kil." According to Wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordtsche_Kil it is, "A short river in South
Holland in the Netherlands. The river is tidal and forms a connection
between the Oude Maas river and the Hollands Diep." The Dutch version of
the page, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordtsche_Kil appears to have more
information on it. Unfortunately, I don't read Dutch. The last two
sentences, "Ook het aan de Dordtsche Kil gelegen bedrijventerrein wordt
Dordtsche Kil ("de Kil") genoemd. Dit is onderverdeeld in Kil I en Kil II."
look particularly intriguing. Looking at a couple of Dutch online
dictionaries revealed only that "kil" means chilly. Easy enough to imagine
an etymological connection to cold water streams, but not really much help.
I have not yet found a Middle Dutch-English dictionary.

What makes all of this interesting to me is not so much the PETA connection
as the fact (assuming the "kill" in "Fishkill" means stream, creek, or
something on that order) that it has exact cognates long familiar to me in
both English, "Fish Creek," and German, "Fischbach." There is a town here
in Wisconsin and there is at least one stream in Michigan with the former
name, and the latter was the name of my aunt's first husband (he was killed
in the war at least 6 years before I was born, so I'm not sure I can really
call him my uncle). Presumably, the family name reflects a genealogical
connection to a place name. The careful reader also will note a connection
with a certain famous musical composer. Sure enough, J.S. Bach was aware of
the geographical significance of his name. I recall hearing an anecdote,
many years ago, in which he quipped, in reference to a student of his, named
Fisch, that he was "...den [dem?, der?] besten Fisch in meinem Bach."

I assume there are similar constructs in many other languages. Anybody out
there know of any?

Dave gave a better example with the Battenkill (which is even on-topic
:-)).

"Batten" looks to me like it might be the equivalent of the German "baden"
and English "bathing." I'd guess there were some popular swimming holes
there a couple hundred years ago.

Even more interesting is the Beaverkill. Presumably, this is where early
Dutch-American truckers went to ogle naked female bathers.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang wrote:

Even more interesting is the Beaverkill. Presumably, this is where early
Dutch-American truckers went to ogle naked female bathers.

Wolfgang



....and schuylkill in PA??

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 10:24:02 +0200, herman Nijland
wrote:

I know of a place called 'Sluiskil', which is water-related, but that's about
the only one that pops up. Dave gave a better example with the Battenkill (which
is even on-topic :-)).

And then there's
Beaver Kill
Bush Kill (ewwwww)
Catskill
Lansing Kill
Plattekill
Saw Kill
Shawangunk Kill (say that three times really fast)

Methinks the early Dutch were very busy naming streams back in the
18th and 19th centuries. d;o)

Dave

"Jeff" wrote in message
news


Wolfgang wrote:

Even more interesting is the Beaverkill. Presumably, this is where early
Dutch-American truckers went to ogle naked female bathers.

...and schuylkill in PA??

Hm......

Yeah, that one's a bit of a poser. The folks at:

http://www.delawareriverkeeper.org/piedmont.html

say, "As the first westerners came to the area they sailed right past the
mouth of the Schuylkill which drains into the estuary region of the main
stem Delaware. Arendt Corssen, who explored the Schuylkill for the Dutch
East Indies Company, named the river 'Schuyl Kil' meaning hidden river, for
the reeds, sedges and grasses that hid the mouth of the Schuylkill.".....but
that's dull.

Unfortunately, the American Society for Kephalonomantic Macrologic Etymology
has suspended my license pending investigation of the "Beaverkill" incident.
Someone else is going to have to take it from here.

Wolfgang

"GaryM" wrote in message
2.112...
"Wolfgang" wrote in
:

"Batten" looks to me like it might be the equivalent of the German
"baden" and English "bathing." I'd guess there were some popular
swimming holes there a couple hundred years ago.

I started to re-read Merwin's book that I mentioned in a post last
night. Damn good book, by the way, even if you never plan on visiting
the place.

According to Merwin "Kill" is Dutch, as has been confirmed by others
here.

The word "Battenkill" was suggested by Esther Swift in her 1977 book
"Vermont Place Names" to be a contraction of Bart's Kill. Hmmm?

Leaving aside the rather peculiar notion that anyone would bother
contracting five letters to six, one is still left wondering by what
mechanism such a radical change would have been accomplished. The ways in
which the meanings, pronunciations and spellings of place names change over
time have long been carefully studied. Certain patterns, or descriptive
rules if you will, have emerged as a result. It's been a long time since I
studied this stuff but this one appears to violate at least a couple of
those rules. First, and probably most important, evolution tends to
shorten, not lengthen, names. Thus, the tetrasyllabic Wor-ces-ter-shire
becomes the trisyllabic Woos-tuh-shur. Vowels (as I hope my quick and dirty
attempt at something like phonetic spelling demonstrates) tend to become
more slurred. The bottom line is that such changes are not random. It may
take a while to ferret out how and why changes occur.....and often enough
the chain can never be fully reconstructed.....but there is always a sort of
logic to them. Getting "Battenkill" out of "Bart's Kill" looks like a
pretty tough trick. Methinks Ms. Swift was reaching a bit.

"Batten" in archaic English means to fertilize or enrich.

And in modern English its use has to do with holding or fastening. Looks
like there isn't much help in either of those.

Most likely though the stream gets its name from the word Batavia,
which is the ancient name for the people of the Western European
lowlands that eventually became Holland. The Dutch settled this
region and there is (or was, since the book was written in 1992) a
project to translate their archaic writings from that time called the
"New Netherlands Project" in Albany. It was even suggested that the
origin of the word Batavia and Batten are the same. There is a
Batavia Kill and a Batavia, New York. In that case Battenkill means
"river of the Dutch".

Shortening "Batavian Kill" to "Battenkill" seems very
plausible.....especially if there is already an etymological connection
between Batavia and batten. It would help a lot to know exactly what that
alleged connection is.

It's Indian names we

Ondawa (Iroquoian) "White Stream" or "Country of Rounded Hills"

I've seen and heard many such either/or translations and they have always
perplexed me. I mean, I can see why there might be some uncertainty about
whether a name in a little known language might mean "the valley where the
tall pointy spruces grow" or "the valley where where the tall pointy
tamaracks grow" (I'm pretty certain that everyone I know is aware that there
are many kinds of conifers and are familiar with the words pine, spruce,
hemlock, fir, etc., but most of them are not very good at distinguishing
between them and tend to refer to all of them generically as "pines"), but
if anyone can translate well enough to make any sense of a name at all, a
"white stream" shouldn't be that difficult to distinguish from a "rounded
hill."

Tyetilegogtakook (Mahican, not Welsh)"Country around the River of
Toads" (thousands of toads migrate to the swamps and backwaters every
year).

Actually, I think that one IS Welsh......well, if you read it backwards,
anyway.

Probably more that you wanted,

Nah, I love this ****.

but thanks to this thread I'll be glad
to reread this book agai (that, and the Hendricksons but 5 weeks
away)!

Good luck with both, and thanks.

Wolfgang

Ken Janik wrote:

"The English word "squaw" was borrowed from the Algonquian language
family of a few Indian tribes in Canada and New England and first
appeared in the American vocabulary around 1634.1 It has been used in
literature and historical documents for much of this country’s history.
The Massachusett/Algonquian word means "young woman."

snip

You've fallen victim to actually believing the crap that the
loony left spouts...


For a link that has pretty good description of the word and its history:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000317.html

For the benefit of those who do not follow the link, Squaw is not an obscene
word after all, but it is offensive most of the time, similar to words like
Negress or Jewess; it is better to avoid its use whenever possible.

Here's an idea: Why not just say "woman" or "wife" it that is what you mean
to say?


--
Rusty Hook
Laramie, Wyoming

Rusty Hook wrote:

Here's an idea: Why not just say "woman" or "wife" it that is what you mean
to say?

For one thing, you wouldn't be able to construct one of the worst puns
in history.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.