PMWS pork entering food chain

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
pearl wrote:

'In his 1583 text, Anatomy of Abuses, Stubbes wrote ...

Didn't realise Stubbsy was that old. :-)

Philip (Pamphleteer, Poet, active 1579-1593 in England, Britain,
Europe), not George (English Romantic Painter, 1724-1806.

Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

"pearl" wrote in message

I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.

and now explain why more chinese eating meat, many getting a decent
diet
for
the first time makes them a wealthy elite

".. diseases of affluence are found in the more densely populated
rural areas nearer the seacoast where industrial activity and literacy
rates are higher ..."

don't tell me, tell the Chinese,

You asked me why eating meat makes them a wealthy elite. Clearly
those in wealthier, more industrial counties can afford to buy meat.

yep and the Chinese are now becoming one of the wealthier more
industrialised countries and can afford to buy meat, and indeed they are
buying meat, and very happy about it they are as well.

(They can't feed the animals many times more calories in the form
of grain/land/energy/etc and then sell meat at a fraction of the cost.)

Your industry is subsidised. Your 'product' is subsidised too.
The true cost is paid by animals, the environment, and people.

yes, our industry is subsidised which allows the urban population to buy
food at below the true cost of production. The biggest environmental damage
agriculture does is support urban populations whose stinking cities fester
across the land



they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with them, so
they
have obviously decided to give the others a go

'The decline in infectious and communicable diseases follows an
increase in, and more equitable distribution of, economic resources.

exactly, and the Chinese aren't worried about it, having tried all the
diseases of poverty they are going to try the diseases of affluence, and
leave the diseases of poverty to those whose countries cannot produce enough
to eat, like for example, the UK

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into kibble
for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Why are those Chinese planners worried then, if that's the case?

Because they might not be able to offer enough meat for a population
demanding it


Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who
cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to
the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

You've quit raising livestock? Go look at a bag of concentrate.

don't lecture me on cattle feed pearl. I don't buy concentrates, I buy
straights, I know the country of origin of each ingredient.


Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the
massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to have
their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your
food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."

boy you are out of touch

No, webster, you are.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food policy by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch


work it out on your fingers
The Argentinians stopped exporting beef in 2006 to allow the price at
home
to fall to ensure Argentinians had plenty of beef

SOME Argentinians.

the vast majority, Argentina has a left of centre government


'The new poor

Despite being considered the breadbasket of South America, recent
national headlines have highlighted the plight of more than 200,000
children suffering from severe malnutrition in the impoverished
province of Tucumán in the north. Yet, Argentina is the world's
fifth largest exporter of agricultural products, including soybeans
and lemons,

easy done, we'll ban the import of argentinan soya


Many Argentineans feel that the country has sunk as low as it can
go with little prospect of recovery in the near future. 90% of
Argentina's population live in and around urban areas and the poorest,
a growing number of 'cartoneros', struggle to make a living. Their only
option is to scavenge through the rubbish to sort out recyclable waste,
as even this has increased in value since the collapse of the peso.
..'
http://www.new-agri.co.uk/03-1/countryp.html

get up to date pearl, that is 2003 data, the world is moving on faster than
you can find web sites



As for Brazilians, their growth forecasts are that as their country
develops
the amount of meat eaten by the local population will increase as they
get
wealthier

They will get wealthier because Brazil is self sufficient in food and
converting a lot of it into energy to reduce its dependence on imported
oil
They also are developing a pretty good manufacturing industry.
So their population is pretty well guaranteed enough to eat and enough
fuel
to shift the food.

'The developing world hasn't always been hungry. Early explorers
of the 16th and 17th centuries often returned amazed at the huge
amounts of food they saw there. In parts of Africa, for example,
people always had three harvests in storage and no-one went
hungry. The idea of buying and selling food was unheard of.

don't worry, they'll probably go back to it, which is a bit of a sod because
you are one of the people dependent on imported food

..
It is common for people to be thrown off the land, often going to
the towns where there is little other work. About 160,000 people
move from rural areas to cities every day (5). Many migrants are
forced to settle in shanty towns and squatter settlements.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough plant
food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If people used
land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather than feeding crops
to animals, then there would be enough to provide everyone with
the average of 2360 Kcal (calories) needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from animal
protein then the planet could sustain only three billion people (8).
In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate the average North
American diet, we would only be able to feed half the world's
population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

Bottom line, jim. There simply aren't adequate resources to
sustain your hideous nightmare. The destruction must stop.

not my nightmare kiddy, it is the real world, it is what is happening out
there. They don';t give a damn about you because they are going to get
through it, because they have the food and the fuel.
You on the other hand are the one who is going to have to find a really
convincing reason for them to sell you food. What have you got to offer that
they cannot produce at home



On the other hand, you have to explain exactly what you have to offer
that
means the Brazilians will sell food to you.

Why should they worry about you and your need for soya?

All these interesting imported protein sources beloved of many
vegetarians
are going to become awfully expensive

So it is about time people woke up to the changing world and decided what
they are going to do about it.

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them in
exchange?

It is YOUR need for soya that is driving people off land and
destroying rainforest, farmer jim. Profit before anything else.

OK so what protein sources do you eat.

remember that I know what is being fed to my cattle and there is no soya. At
the moment they are all eating byproducts from food production that people
cannot eat.

So what protein sources do you eat

and how are you going to convince people to sell them to you

Jim Webster

Alan Holmes wrote:
"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
...
"pearl" wrote in message
...

except that they are still eating more and more meat
Some are. Others, many millions, are starving because land that
had
supported them sustainably for generations was expropriated by
and
for a meat-eating 'wealthy elite'. You ignore it, because -you-
'profit'.
sure, and explain how I profit out of meat production in china?
I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.
and now explain why more chinese eating meat, many getting a decent
diet
for
the first time makes them a wealthy elite
".. diseases of affluence are found in the more densely populated
rural areas nearer the seacoast where industrial activity and literacy
rates are higher ..."
don't tell me, tell the Chinese,
You asked me why eating meat makes them a wealthy elite. Clearly
those in wealthier, more industrial counties can afford to buy meat.
(They can't feed the animals many times more calories in the form
of grain/land/energy/etc and then sell meat at a fraction of the cost.)

Your industry is subsidised. Your 'product' is subsidised too.
The true cost is paid by animals, the environment, and people.

they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with them, so
they
have obviously decided to give the others a go
'The decline in infectious and communicable diseases follows an
increase in, and more equitable distribution of, economic resources.
An extensive investigation of mortality rate trends in England and
Wales in the eighteenth, nineteenth and twentieth centuries
(McKeown and Record, 1955; McKeown and Record, 1962;
McKeown et aL, 1975) indicates that the nineteenth century decline
in mortality rates for the most prevalent infectious diseases was
wholly attributable to environmental control, not to intervention
with curative medicines and vaccines.
..
In contrast with the communicable and infectious diseases affecting
the rural poor, the more economically privileged urban sectors in
these countries suffer from a rising prevalence of chronic degenerative
diseases appropriately referred to as 'diseases of misdevelopment' by
Dumont (1989)
..'
http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/rep...ll_china2.html

"misdevelopment", jim.

'In Central and South America, ever-increasing amounts of land
are being used to grow soya beans and grain for export - to be
used as animal feed.
exactly, because these people are determined to eat more meat.
We're talking about -your- profits here, jimmy.
exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into kibble
for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.
Why are those Chinese planners worried then, if that's the case?

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who
cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to
the
Latin American groups and moan at them
You buy their produce.
No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.
You've quit raising livestock? Go look at a bag of concentrate.

Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the
massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to have
their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your
food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price
"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."
boy you are out of touch
No, webster, you are.

work it out on your fingers
The Argentinians stopped exporting beef in 2006 to allow the price at
home
to fall to ensure Argentinians had plenty of beef
SOME Argentinians.

'The new poor

Despite being considered the breadbasket of South America, recent
national headlines have highlighted the plight of more than 200,000
children suffering from severe malnutrition in the impoverished
province of Tucumán in the north. Yet, Argentina is the world's
fifth largest exporter of agricultural products, including soybeans
and lemons, which Tucumán produces in large quantities. Ironically
the current economic crisis has made exporters wealthier as exports
are priced in dollars and, despite export taxes, farmers are finding it
more profitable to export than to sell to domestic markets. As a
result, local food prices have soared, by over two-thirds in twelve
months, and much of the food produced is now beyond the reach
of the poor.

Many Argentineans feel that the country has sunk as low as it can
go with little prospect of recovery in the near future. 90% of
Argentina's population live in and around urban areas and the poorest,
a growing number of 'cartoneros', struggle to make a living. Their only
option is to scavenge through the rubbish to sort out recyclable waste,
as even this has increased in value since the collapse of the peso.
..'
http://www.new-agri.co.uk/03-1/countryp.html

As for Brazilians, their growth forecasts are that as their country
develops
the amount of meat eaten by the local population will increase as they
get
wealthier

They will get wealthier because Brazil is self sufficient in food and
converting a lot of it into energy to reduce its dependence on imported
oil
They also are developing a pretty good manufacturing industry.
So their population is pretty well guaranteed enough to eat and enough
fuel
to shift the food.
'The developing world hasn't always been hungry. Early explorers
of the 16th and 17th centuries often returned amazed at the huge
amounts of food they saw there. In parts of Africa, for example,
people always had three harvests in storage and no-one went
hungry. The idea of buying and selling food was unheard of.
..
It is common for people to be thrown off the land, often going to
the towns where there is little other work. About 160,000 people
move from rural areas to cities every day (5). Many migrants are
forced to settle in shanty towns and squatter settlements.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough plant
food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If people used
land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather than feeding crops
to animals, then there would be enough to provide everyone with
the average of 2360 Kcal (calories) needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from animal
protein then the planet could sustain only three billion people (8).
In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate the average North
American diet, we would only be able to feed half the world's
population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

Bottom line, jim. There simply aren't adequate resources to
sustain your hideous nightmare. The destruction must stop.

On the other hand, you have to explain exactly what you have to offer
that
means the Brazilians will sell food to you.
Why should they worry about you and your need for soya?
All these interesting imported protein sources beloved of many
vegetarians
are going to become awfully expensive

So it is about time people woke up to the changing world and decided what
they are going to do about it.

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them in
exchange?
It is YOUR need for soya that is driving people off land and
destroying rainforest, farmer jim. Profit before anything else.

'As the market responds to money and not to actual need, it can
only work to eliminate hunger when purchasing power is widely
dispersed, says the book. As the rural poor are increasingly
pushed from land, they are less and less able to demand for food
on the market. Promoting free trade to alleviate hunger has
proven to be a failure. In most developing countries exports have
boomed while hunger has continued unabated or actually worsened
according to the book.

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese and
European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to two-thirds of
the population"...."Where the majority of people have been made
too poor to buy the food grown on their own country's soil, those
who control productive resources will, not surprisingly, orient their
production to more lucrative markets abroad."

Pro-trade policies like that of the North American Free Trade
Agreement (NAFTA) and the General Agreement on Tariffs and
Trade (GATT) promotes export crop production and suppresses
basic food production. Foreign aid from industrialised countries
has supported such free trade and free market policies.
..'
http://www.psrast.org/nowohu.htm




Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

Why the bloody hell don't you snip


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

pearl wrote:
"Old Codger"
mailto ...
pearl wrote:

'In his 1583 text, Anatomy of Abuses, Stubbes wrote ...

Didn't realise Stubbsy was that old. :-)

Philip (Pamphleteer, Poet, active 1579-1593 in England, Britain,
Europe), not George (English Romantic Painter, 1724-1806.

Obviously, since the text you quoted was dated 1583.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

Alan Holmes wrote:
"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
pearl wrote:
'In his 1583 text, Anatomy of Abuses, Stubbes wrote ...
Didn't realise Stubbsy was that old. :-)


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

'Cos the morons who start the cross post will just reinstate it. Use
your killfile if you don't like it.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message

I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.

and now explain why more chinese eating meat, many getting a decent
diet
for
the first time makes them a wealthy elite

".. diseases of affluence are found in the more densely populated
rural areas nearer the seacoast where industrial activity and literacy
rates are higher ..."

don't tell me, tell the Chinese,

You asked me why eating meat makes them a wealthy elite. Clearly
those in wealthier, more industrial counties can afford to buy meat.

yep and the Chinese are now becoming one of the wealthier more
industrialised countries and can afford to buy meat, and indeed they are
buying meat, and very happy about it they are as well.

Some are, and they will pay the inevitable price.

(They can't feed the animals many times more calories in the form
of grain/land/energy/etc and then sell meat at a fraction of the cost.)

Your industry is subsidised. Your 'product' is subsidised too.
The true cost is paid by animals, the environment, and people.

yes, our industry is subsidised which allows the urban population to buy
food at below the true cost of production. The biggest environmental damage
agriculture does is support urban populations whose stinking cities fester
across the land

Who ultimately pays for those subsidies? People crowded in urban areas
because of your stinking livestock farms festering across ~70% of the land.
It is not only in "developing" countries where people have been forced off
land by greedy cattle barons who raze/d everything in their way for meat.

they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with them, so
they
have obviously decided to give the others a go

'The decline in infectious and communicable diseases follows an
increase in, and more equitable distribution of, economic resources.

exactly, and the Chinese aren't worried about it, having tried all the
diseases of poverty they are going to try the diseases of affluence,

Where's all the extra arable land, pasture and grain to come from?

and
leave the diseases of poverty to those whose countries cannot produce enough
to eat, like for example, the UK

To eat meat, even though..

'Over 70 per cent of the land in the UK is used for agriculture, and
66 per cent of this is used as permanent pasture (1) while a high
proportion of the remainder is used to grow crops to feed livestock.
...'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/planetonaplate.htm

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into kibble
for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Why are those Chinese planners worried then, if that's the case?

Because they might not be able to offer enough meat for a population
demanding it

Bingo.

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who
cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to
the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

You've quit raising livestock? Go look at a bag of concentrate.

don't lecture me on cattle feed pearl. I don't buy concentrates, I buy
straights, I know the country of origin of each ingredient.

Where's your soya meal from?

Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the
massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to have
their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your
food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."

boy you are out of touch

No, webster, you are.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food policy by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

work it out on your fingers
The Argentinians stopped exporting beef in 2006 to allow the price at
home
to fall to ensure Argentinians had plenty of beef

SOME Argentinians.

the vast majority, Argentina has a left of centre government

Support your claim of "the vast majority".

'The new poor

Despite being considered the breadbasket of South America, recent
national headlines have highlighted the plight of more than 200,000
children suffering from severe malnutrition in the impoverished
province of Tucumán in the north. Yet, Argentina is the world's
fifth largest exporter of agricultural products, including soybeans
and lemons,

easy done, we'll ban the import of argentinan soya

Brazil .. Argentina. Where is your soya meal imported from?

Many Argentineans feel that the country has sunk as low as it can
go with little prospect of recovery in the near future. 90% of
Argentina's population live in and around urban areas and the poorest,
a growing number of 'cartoneros', struggle to make a living. Their only
option is to scavenge through the rubbish to sort out recyclable waste,
as even this has increased in value since the collapse of the peso.
..'
http://www.new-agri.co.uk/03-1/countryp.html

get up to date pearl, that is 2003 data, the world is moving on faster than
you can find web sites

Update us.

As for Brazilians, their growth forecasts are that as their country
develops
the amount of meat eaten by the local population will increase as they
get
wealthier

They will get wealthier because Brazil is self sufficient in food and
converting a lot of it into energy to reduce its dependence on imported
oil
They also are developing a pretty good manufacturing industry.
So their population is pretty well guaranteed enough to eat and enough
fuel
to shift the food.

'The developing world hasn't always been hungry. Early explorers
of the 16th and 17th centuries often returned amazed at the huge
amounts of food they saw there. In parts of Africa, for example,
people always had three harvests in storage and no-one went
hungry. The idea of buying and selling food was unheard of.

don't worry, they'll probably go back to it, which is a bit of a sod because
you are one of the people dependent on imported food

They can't go back to it, as their land is used to meet your demands.

..
It is common for people to be thrown off the land, often going to
the towns where there is little other work. About 160,000 people
move from rural areas to cities every day (5). Many migrants are
forced to settle in shanty towns and squatter settlements.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough plant
food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If people used
land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather than feeding crops
to animals, then there would be enough to provide everyone with
the average of 2360 Kcal (calories) needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from animal
protein then the planet could sustain only three billion people (8).
In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate the average North
American diet, we would only be able to feed half the world's
population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

Bottom line, jim. There simply aren't adequate resources to
sustain your hideous nightmare. The destruction must stop.

not my nightmare kiddy, it is the real world, it is what is happening out
there. They don';t give a damn about you because they are going to get
through it, because they have the food and the fuel.

Many don't, kidder. Those poor you don't give a damn about
because you make money - as the nightmare for them goes on
in the real world - unlike your fantasy-land 'hamburgers for all'.

You on the other hand are the one who is going to have to find a really
convincing reason for them to sell you food. What have you got to offer that
they cannot produce at home

They're selling you feed even though people are starving.
They do it for money. Just like you. All else be damned.

On the other hand, you have to explain exactly what you have to offer
that
means the Brazilians will sell food to you.

Why should they worry about you and your need for soya?

All these interesting imported protein sources beloved of many
vegetarians
are going to become awfully expensive

So it is about time people woke up to the changing world and decided what
they are going to do about it.

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them in
exchange?

It is YOUR need for soya that is driving people off land and
destroying rainforest, farmer jim. Profit before anything else.

OK so what protein sources do you eat.

It is not feeding people that's a problem. It's feeding livestock.

remember that I know what is being fed to my cattle and there is no soya. At
the moment they are all eating byproducts from food production that people
cannot eat.

BS.

So what protein sources do you eat

and how are you going to convince people to sell them to you

Jim Webster

"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
pearl wrote:
"Old Codger"
mailto ...
pearl wrote:

'In his 1583 text, Anatomy of Abuses, Stubbes wrote ...

Didn't realise Stubbsy was that old. :-)
Philip (Pamphleteer, Poet, active 1579-1593 in England, Britain,
Europe), not George (English Romantic Painter, 1724-1806.

Obviously, since the text you quoted was dated 1583.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message

I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.

and now explain why more chinese eating meat, many getting a decent
diet
for
the first time makes them a wealthy elite

".. diseases of affluence are found in the more densely populated
rural areas nearer the seacoast where industrial activity and
literacy
rates are higher ..."

don't tell me, tell the Chinese,

You asked me why eating meat makes them a wealthy elite. Clearly
those in wealthier, more industrial counties can afford to buy meat.

yep and the Chinese are now becoming one of the wealthier more
industrialised countries and can afford to buy meat, and indeed they are
buying meat, and very happy about it they are as well.

Some are, and they will pay the inevitable price.

(They can't feed the animals many times more calories in the form
of grain/land/energy/etc and then sell meat at a fraction of the cost.)

Your industry is subsidised. Your 'product' is subsidised too.
The true cost is paid by animals, the environment, and people.

yes, our industry is subsidised which allows the urban population to buy
food at below the true cost of production. The biggest environmental
damage
agriculture does is support urban populations whose stinking cities
fester
across the land

Who ultimately pays for those subsidies? People crowded in urban areas
because of your stinking livestock farms festering across ~70% of the
land.
It is not only in "developing" countries where people have been forced off
land by greedy cattle barons who raze/d everything in their way for meat.

they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with them,
so
they
have obviously decided to give the others a go

'The decline in infectious and communicable diseases follows an
increase in, and more equitable distribution of, economic resources.

exactly, and the Chinese aren't worried about it, having tried all the
diseases of poverty they are going to try the diseases of affluence,

Where's all the extra arable land, pasture and grain to come from?

and
leave the diseases of poverty to those whose countries cannot produce
enough
to eat, like for example, the UK

To eat meat, even though..

'Over 70 per cent of the land in the UK is used for agriculture, and
66 per cent of this is used as permanent pasture (1) while a high
proportion of the remainder is used to grow crops to feed livestock.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/planetonaplate.htm

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that
make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into
kibble
for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Why are those Chinese planners worried then, if that's the case?

Because they might not be able to offer enough meat for a population
demanding it

Bingo.

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who
cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line
to
the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

You've quit raising livestock? Go look at a bag of concentrate.

don't lecture me on cattle feed pearl. I don't buy concentrates, I buy
straights, I know the country of origin of each ingredient.

Where's your soya meal from?

Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the
massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to
have
their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your
food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."

boy you are out of touch

No, webster, you are.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food policy by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

work it out on your fingers
The Argentinians stopped exporting beef in 2006 to allow the price at
home
to fall to ensure Argentinians had plenty of beef

SOME Argentinians.

the vast majority, Argentina has a left of centre government

Support your claim of "the vast majority".

'The new poor

Despite being considered the breadbasket of South America, recent
national headlines have highlighted the plight of more than 200,000
children suffering from severe malnutrition in the impoverished
province of Tucumán in the north. Yet, Argentina is the world's
fifth largest exporter of agricultural products, including soybeans
and lemons,

easy done, we'll ban the import of argentinan soya

Brazil .. Argentina. Where is your soya meal imported from?

Many Argentineans feel that the country has sunk as low as it can
go with little prospect of recovery in the near future. 90% of
Argentina's population live in and around urban areas and the poorest,
a growing number of 'cartoneros', struggle to make a living. Their only
option is to scavenge through the rubbish to sort out recyclable waste,
as even this has increased in value since the collapse of the peso.
..'
http://www.new-agri.co.uk/03-1/countryp.html

get up to date pearl, that is 2003 data, the world is moving on faster
than
you can find web sites

Update us.

As for Brazilians, their growth forecasts are that as their country
develops
the amount of meat eaten by the local population will increase as they
get
wealthier

They will get wealthier because Brazil is self sufficient in food and
converting a lot of it into energy to reduce its dependence on
imported
oil
They also are developing a pretty good manufacturing industry.
So their population is pretty well guaranteed enough to eat and enough
fuel
to shift the food.

'The developing world hasn't always been hungry. Early explorers
of the 16th and 17th centuries often returned amazed at the huge
amounts of food they saw there. In parts of Africa, for example,
people always had three harvests in storage and no-one went
hungry. The idea of buying and selling food was unheard of.

don't worry, they'll probably go back to it, which is a bit of a sod
because
you are one of the people dependent on imported food

They can't go back to it, as their land is used to meet your demands.

..
It is common for people to be thrown off the land, often going to
the towns where there is little other work. About 160,000 people
move from rural areas to cities every day (5). Many migrants are
forced to settle in shanty towns and squatter settlements.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough plant
food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If people used
land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather than feeding crops
to animals, then there would be enough to provide everyone with
the average of 2360 Kcal (calories) needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from animal
protein then the planet could sustain only three billion people (8).
In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate the average North
American diet, we would only be able to feed half the world's
population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

Bottom line, jim. There simply aren't adequate resources to
sustain your hideous nightmare. The destruction must stop.

not my nightmare kiddy, it is the real world, it is what is happening out
there. They don';t give a damn about you because they are going to get
through it, because they have the food and the fuel.

Many don't, kidder. Those poor you don't give a damn about
because you make money - as the nightmare for them goes on
in the real world - unlike your fantasy-land 'hamburgers for all'.

You on the other hand are the one who is going to have to find a really
convincing reason for them to sell you food. What have you got to offer
that
they cannot produce at home

They're selling you feed even though people are starving.
They do it for money. Just like you. All else be damned.

On the other hand, you have to explain exactly what you have to offer
that
means the Brazilians will sell food to you.

Why should they worry about you and your need for soya?

All these interesting imported protein sources beloved of many
vegetarians
are going to become awfully expensive

So it is about time people woke up to the changing world and decided
what
they are going to do about it.

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of
living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them
in
exchange?

It is YOUR need for soya that is driving people off land and
destroying rainforest, farmer jim. Profit before anything else.

OK so what protein sources do you eat.

It is not feeding people that's a problem. It's feeding livestock.

remember that I know what is being fed to my cattle and there is no soya.
At
the moment they are all eating byproducts from food production that
people
cannot eat.

BS.

So what protein sources do you eat

and how are you going to convince people to sell them to you

Jim Webster





Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

Alan Holmes wrote:

Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

Thought you were a birdwatcher. I am not posting to a birdwatching group.

I have already told you that the morons who started the crossposts will
just reinstate them.

I have now shown you how to snip. Perhaps you would be kind enough to
do likewise with your next complaint.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"pearl" wrote in message
...


yep and the Chinese are now becoming one of the wealthier more
industrialised countries and can afford to buy meat, and indeed they are
buying meat, and very happy about it they are as well.

Some are, and they will pay the inevitable price.

no you will pay the price, because you are the one who will not be able to
buy food and fuel because they are using it


(They can't feed the animals many times more calories in the form
of grain/land/energy/etc and then sell meat at a fraction of the cost.)

Your industry is subsidised. Your 'product' is subsidised too.
The true cost is paid by animals, the environment, and people.

yes, our industry is subsidised which allows the urban population to buy
food at below the true cost of production. The biggest environmental
damage
agriculture does is support urban populations whose stinking cities
fester
across the land

Who ultimately pays for those subsidies? People crowded in urban areas
because of your stinking livestock farms festering across ~70% of the
land.
It is not only in "developing" countries where people have been forced off
land by greedy cattle barons who raze/d everything in their way for meat.

yep. let the people back on the land, it worked so well in Zimbabwe
Indeed let the government run the land. After all under Socialism the Russia
imported grain, it was desperate for it, now under private ownership Russia
and the Ukraine are major grain exporters.
Yep, let the greedy barons farm, at least they actually produce food


they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with them,
so
they
have obviously decided to give the others a go

'The decline in infectious and communicable diseases follows an
increase in, and more equitable distribution of, economic resources.

exactly, and the Chinese aren't worried about it, having tried all the
diseases of poverty they are going to try the diseases of affluence,

Where's all the extra arable land, pasture and grain to come from?

that is your problem, the Brazilians have plenty to feed and fuel
themselves, it is you that is going to go short. The chinese are worried,
but they do have a big GM programme and plans to build 48 nuclear power
stations which should cut their oil and coal use



and
leave the diseases of poverty to those whose countries cannot produce
enough
to eat, like for example, the UK

To eat meat, even though..

'Over 70 per cent of the land in the UK is used for agriculture, and
66 per cent of this is used as permanent pasture (1) while a high
proportion of the remainder is used to grow crops to feed livestock.

already discussed this earlier in the thread.
You cannot grow crops on land that has been converted into flood storage
because too many people live on the flood plain, you cannot grow crops on
land that washes away if you plough it because of the slope, you cannot grow
crops on the land in the north of scotland because the rock or bog is too
cloe to the surface.
remember they have said the UK, so they include the Scottish highlands and
the welsh mountains, look at a map and see how big an area that is

..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/planetonaplate.htm

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that
make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into
kibble
for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Why are those Chinese planners worried then, if that's the case?

Because they might not be able to offer enough meat for a population
demanding it

Bingo.

yep. And the Chinese government is interested in what the Chinese population
wants, it doesn't give a damn what you want

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who
cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line
to
the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

You've quit raising livestock? Go look at a bag of concentrate.

don't lecture me on cattle feed pearl. I don't buy concentrates, I buy
straights, I know the country of origin of each ingredient.

Where's your soya meal from?

duh
don't feed soya


Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the
massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to
have
their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your
food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."

boy you are out of touch

No, webster, you are.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food policy by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

anywhere that produces it cheap, but remember rape meal and maize gluten,
both food industry and biofuel byproducts are the important sources of
protein. Soya will be more for pigs and poultry.

work it out on your fingers
The Argentinians stopped exporting beef in 2006 to allow the price at
home
to fall to ensure Argentinians had plenty of beef

SOME Argentinians.

the vast majority, Argentina has a left of centre government

Support your claim of "the vast majority".

look at the election results



'The new poor

Despite being considered the breadbasket of South America, recent
national headlines have highlighted the plight of more than 200,000
children suffering from severe malnutrition in the impoverished
province of Tucumán in the north. Yet, Argentina is the world's
fifth largest exporter of agricultural products, including soybeans
and lemons,

easy done, we'll ban the import of argentinan soya

Brazil .. Argentina. Where is your soya meal imported from?

see above

Many Argentineans feel that the country has sunk as low as it can
go with little prospect of recovery in the near future. 90% of
Argentina's population live in and around urban areas and the poorest,
a growing number of 'cartoneros', struggle to make a living. Their only
option is to scavenge through the rubbish to sort out recyclable waste,
as even this has increased in value since the collapse of the peso.
..'
http://www.new-agri.co.uk/03-1/countryp.html

get up to date pearl, that is 2003 data, the world is moving on faster
than
you can find web sites

Update us.

already have


As for Brazilians, their growth forecasts are that as their country
develops
the amount of meat eaten by the local population will increase as they
get
wealthier

They will get wealthier because Brazil is self sufficient in food and
converting a lot of it into energy to reduce its dependence on
imported
oil
They also are developing a pretty good manufacturing industry.
So their population is pretty well guaranteed enough to eat and enough
fuel
to shift the food.

'The developing world hasn't always been hungry. Early explorers
of the 16th and 17th centuries often returned amazed at the huge
amounts of food they saw there. In parts of Africa, for example,
people always had three harvests in storage and no-one went
hungry. The idea of buying and selling food was unheard of.

don't worry, they'll probably go back to it, which is a bit of a sod
because
you are one of the people dependent on imported food

They can't go back to it, as their land is used to meet your demands.

tough isn't it
You don't fancy a sod busting life as a subsistance peasant and the world
cannot see a reason to sell you food.



not my nightmare kiddy, it is the real world, it is what is happening out
there. They don';t give a damn about you because they are going to get
through it, because they have the food and the fuel.

Many don't, kidder. Those poor you don't give a damn about
because you make money - as the nightmare for them goes on
in the real world - unlike your fantasy-land 'hamburgers for all'.




You on the other hand are the one who is going to have to find a really
convincing reason for them to sell you food. What have you got to offer
that
they cannot produce at home

They're selling you feed even though people are starving.
They do it for money. Just like you. All else be damned.

you still haven't grasped it have you.
Even if you plough everything in the UK that will plough, and to hell with
flooding and massive soil loss through erosian, there still isn't the land
to produce the food, even if we are entirely vegetarian. Remember you have
lost half the land to biofuel anyway
And you still haven't said why the Brazilians should take food out of their
peoples mouths to give it to you


On the other hand, you have to explain exactly what you have to offer
that
means the Brazilians will sell food to you.

Why should they worry about you and your need for soya?

All these interesting imported protein sources beloved of many
vegetarians
are going to become awfully expensive

So it is about time people woke up to the changing world and decided
what
they are going to do about it.

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of
living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them
in
exchange?

It is YOUR need for soya that is driving people off land and
destroying rainforest, farmer jim. Profit before anything else.

OK so what protein sources do you eat.

It is not feeding people that's a problem. It's feeding livestock.

You never will answer this question will you, what protein sources do you
eat


remember that I know what is being fed to my cattle and there is no soya.
At
the moment they are all eating byproducts from food production that
people
cannot eat.

BS.


sorry if it doesn't fit in with your bigotted preconceptions but beef cattle
do fine on grass silage, maize gluten and busicit meal, the last a
confectionary waste product


So what protein sources do you eat

and how are you going to convince people to sell them to you

two questions you seem unable to answer

Jim Webster