question on droppers

Mike wrote in news:1194390162.416904.256310
@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

Apart from which, using the tag end of a knot is asking for a break,
it is a very weak rig, and not at all advisable.



The way this is often done is to use the tag end of the blood knot that
attaches tippet to leader. It doesn't seem particularly weak, and I've
never had a break there. When I nymph, I get caught on bottom plenty, and
my chaotic attempts to free up often result in breaks, but not at that
knot.


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:02:42 -0800, Mike
wrote:

If you only fish with one nymph, why would you need the tag end of a
knot for attaching another one?

I said I sometimes have fished doubles, even triples. If I would use
a double, I would use the tag method. Works find and have never had a
break off. I have also used the tie in at the hook, and have taken
fish on *that* fly. No trouble hooking up

Apart from which, using the tag end of a knot is asking for a break,
it is a very weak rig, and not at all advisable.

All the *experts* on nymphing use this method, Connor. I have used it
and have never had a break off *except* when I had two fish on and it
was too much for a 5x tippet. However, I generally prefer a single
fly, especially if I know what they want. Fish are like women,
Connor; find out what they want it give it to them.

Daveyboy

I would wholeheartedly agree with the others who wrote same, that the
dropper from the tag on the blood knot is a very good system. Keep the
dropper a manageable length, and be sure to use the tag from the stronger of
the two pieces of nylon, and this rig seldom fails or hangs up.
I fish pairs of wets pretty frequently, and have done so with this rig for
over 30 years.
Tom

Bob Weinberger wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message
ups.com...

snip

Apart from which, using the tag end of a knot is asking for a break,
it is a very weak rig, and not at all advisable.

MC


Maybe so, but in 30+ years of fishing for steelhead with a two fly rig,
swinging flys on or near the surface, that has been my standard set-up and
it has never given me any problem. I almost invariably use hand tied leaders
of Maxima Chameleon with 8# tippet and 10# next section. The dropper fly is
tied on the 10# tag end.

I don't know how many steelhead I've caught in that time, but it has to be
high in the thousands with the largest being a 22#er. Many many years ago I
thought it was my duty to catch as many steelhead as possible, and in the
last season of that period of my evolution as a steelheader I stopped
counting 2/3 of the way through the season at 200 fish brought to hand..

Have I had fish break off? Of course, far more than I like to admit. But
I can probably count the number that broke off at the first blood knot as a
result of using the tag for a dropper on my hands with fingers left over.
Most breaks occured: 1. At the connection of the tippet to the point fly,
2. At previously unnoticed rock nicks, or 3. At unnoticed (or to lazy to
deal with) wind knots.

I have however acquired some leader rings (per your suggestion) and will
likely switch over to them so I don't have to replace both the 8# and 10#
sections as often.

Bob Weinberger





I used that system quite a lot for a while, years ago, but I got too
many breaks at the knot when using fine nylon. Always on snags. I know
quite a few other people who have had problems with it as well, and lost
fish as a result. There is also quite a bit of info on the web about
it.A search will turn it up.

In thicker nylon, it will not cause the same problems, as the reduction
in breaking strain is not then really relevant.

I dont count fish, it just seems pointless. That is not a crticism of
anybody who does so, it is just something I don´t do.

I have never had a fish break off, although I lost a large seatrout once
when the knot failed. Obviously my fault for tying a bad knot.

Since using the leader rings, I have had no problems at all. Also very
much more convenient for changing tippet or droppers etc.

The blood knot itself can also be very unreliable, and must be tied very
very carefully indeed. there are quite a few better knots.

A simple pull test will serve to demonstrate the weakness of a blood
knot in comparison to others. using the tag end of such a knot is really
asking for trouble. Of course, peoplem ay use whatever they please, and
if it works OK that is fine. I merely gave my opinion.

TL
MC

flyman23 wrote:
The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?



I've noticed this phenomenon, too. Every tandem nymph fisherman must
have noticed.

What's happening, I'm convinced, is that when a fish takes our top nymph
we're too late to strike, and we snag the fish with the bottom nymph.
This doesn't happen every time, but it happens often enough to bias the
outcome heavily in favor of the bottom nymph.

Whether you think this is sporting is up to you. All I know is that I
ALWAYS fish (at least) two nymphs -- when I'm fishing nymphs, that is.

It's not much different than catching trout with pegged bead eggs. That
works, too.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 03:44:27 -0500, flyman23
wrote:


The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?


For the large fast flowing rivers of the central North Island of NZ
this is the preferred method of nymphing. The top nymph incorporates a
lot of lead and/or tungsten and is used purely to get the nymphs down.
This heavy nymph hardly resembles a natural but the dropper nymph (8"
- 10" below) is much smaller and resembles the local insects -
therefore it is the major fish catcher. Also the nymph on the dropper
appears to move through the water with a more natural manner. This
does not stop the odd trout impaling itself on the "bomb".

Smaller streams require a different set up.

"Jim" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 03:44:27 -0500, flyman23
wrote:


The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?


For the large fast flowing rivers of the central North Island of NZ
this is the preferred method of nymphing. The top nymph incorporates a
lot of lead and/or tungsten and is used purely to get the nymphs down.
This heavy nymph hardly resembles a natural but the dropper nymph (8"
- 10" below) is much smaller and resembles the local insects -
therefore it is the major fish catcher. Also the nymph on the dropper
appears to move through the water with a more natural manner. This
does not stop the odd trout impaling itself on the "bomb".

Smaller streams require a different set up.


Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?
-tom

On 7 Nov, 19:51, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message

...



On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 03:44:27 -0500, flyman23
wrote:

The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?

For the large fast flowing rivers of the central North Island of NZ
this is the preferred method of nymphing. The top nymph incorporates a
lot of lead and/or tungsten and is used purely to get the nymphs down.
This heavy nymph hardly resembles a natural but the dropper nymph (8"
- 10" below) is much smaller and resembles the local insects -
therefore it is the major fish catcher. Also the nymph on the dropper
appears to move through the water with a more natural manner. This
does not stop the odd trout impaling itself on the "bomb".

Smaller streams require a different set up.

Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?
-tom

I use shot for some techniques, but I usually prefer to use "sheet
anchor" flies in specific weights and sizes for most techniques. Using
shot on the point or on a dropper can be a very useful technique,
especially in snaggy water, or when you wish to fish a point fly at a
specific distance from the bottom. In snaggy water don´t use a stop
knot, and the shot will simply pull off if it snags;

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5810/shotrighk5.jpg


http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...d_leaders.html

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...sentation.html

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...tactics_3.html

I don´t like crimping shot directly to the main leader, as apart from
possibly damaging the line as a result, this often results in very
inelegant casting. Also, naked shot on the leader can ding your rod
badly if you miscalculate or a gust of wind surprises you etc.

I don´t like bead head nymphs, and I don´t use them, for similar
reasons, and also because I find them aesthetically and traditionally
displeasing.

TL
MC

"Mike" wrote in message
ps.com...
On 7 Nov, 19:51, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:

Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?
-tom

I use shot for some techniques, but I usually prefer to use "sheet
anchor" flies in specific weights and sizes for most techniques. Using
shot on the point or on a dropper can be a very useful technique,
especially in snaggy water, or when you wish to fish a point fly at a
specific distance from the bottom. In snaggy water don´t use a stop
knot, and the shot will simply pull off if it snags;

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5810/shotrighk5.jpg

TL
MC

I use a similar rigging with a split/s and a separate short tippet and
no-knot, weight depending on "current". If I snag, I don't lose the fly,
just the split.
I rarely use beaded nymphs, and prefer no tandems.
-tom

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:51:43 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?

That is my normal nymphing rig. I usually know what will work on my
home waters, so I use just one nymph on the end of an 18 inch tippet.
I put non-toxic split shot at the tippet/leader knot (generally a
double surgeon's knot. I will "tune" the rig by adding or subtracting
weight until I get the right drift. I generally do not use a strike
indicator, but if I do I tune it for the right depth.

Although I have them, I don't like using beaded nymphs if they are the
metal type. I have glass beads on many of my home-ties and they do
not add that much weight to the fly.

Dave