Scouts fly tying classes - Chosing the pattern

On 28 Nov, 22:05, rb608 wrote:

I don't know about kids
at scouting age; but as an adult newbie, I thought it was an easy
first fly.

Joe F.

This is often cited as a good beginner fly, but in my experience it
most definitely is not.

There are a lot more than three techniques involved.

Start the thread, wind the thread evenly to the tie-in point, tie the
ribbing in properly, tie the tail in, pinch and loop, strip the
chenille to the core, tie it in, wind it on, changing hands,
( assuming non-rotary), using hackle pliers, tying hackle in,
palmering hackle, ribbing hackle, whip finishing.

This also ignores the material preparation, selecting hackle,
stripping fluff from base, and the various reasons for doing some
things in a certain way.

TL
MC

Oh, and it is five materials! Thread, ribbing wire, marabou tail,
chenille body, hackle.

A simple hackle pattern only has two.

Second lesson, hackle pattern with a rib

Third lesson, hackled with tail and rib

Fourth lesson, tail, rib, and palmered hackle.

Things like using wire, tensioning materials and thread also have to
be learned before one can tie an even half way presentable Woolly
Bugger. Whip finishing and other things too.

The main problem for newbies is working on such a small scale, and
coordinating hand and eye. This is best learned in small cumulative
steps. Trying to do it all at once is doomed to failure, and causes
disappointment and frustration.

TL
MC

This is the first lesson I give. The pupils tie at least half a dozen
flies.

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...st_spider.html

TL
MC

"Mike" wrote in message
...
Oh, and it is five materials! Thread, ribbing wire, marabou tail,
chenille body, hackle.

A simple hackle pattern only has two.

Second lesson, hackle pattern with a rib

Third lesson, hackled with tail and rib

Fourth lesson, tail, rib, and palmered hackle.

Things like using wire, tensioning materials and thread also have to
be learned before one can tie an even half way presentable Woolly
Bugger. Whip finishing and other things too.

The main problem for newbies is working on such a small scale, and
coordinating hand and eye. This is best learned in small cumulative
steps. Trying to do it all at once is doomed to failure, and causes
disappointment and frustration.

Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.


Wolfgang

On Nov 28, 4:26 pm, Mike wrote:
Oh, and it is five materials! Thread, ribbing wire, marabou tail,
chenille body, hackle.

Well, it's six if you count the hook; but I don't count thread as a
material, and I don't use ribbing for smaller buggers. That's how I
got 3.

The main problem for newbies is working on such a small scale, and
coordinating hand and eye.

That's why I think a nice 3X long #6 streamer hook is a great start.

Trying to do it all at once is doomed to failure, and causes
disappointment and frustration.

I agree in principle; but speaking for myself (and everyone else in my
class IIRC), a simple tie-****-on-&-wrap-it-around-the-hook fly was
pretty easy to start with and almost impossible to screw up.
Obviously your experience with your students is otherwise, and I can't
argue with that.

Joe F.

Lloyd:
A couple of questions:
1. How much teaching time do you have?
2. How many students at one time?
If you can only tie one pattern, then I suppose the tried and true wooly
bugger is as good a choice as any. However, more time would enable a series
of flies to teach different skills. Mike's approach is sound, if that
is the case. I seem to remember a similar sequence recommended in some
British author's Tying book, and it teaches strong basic skills, after which
the interested newbie will practice until he/she can tie anything they wish.
Tom

Hello rb608,

On Nov 28, 3:27 pm, Mike wrote:

For complete beginners, I think a woolly
bugger is too complicated, and introduces too many techniques at
once.
I still remember being a newbie, and the wooly bugger definitely had a
great "gee whiz"-to-difficulty ratio. It's only three materials, so
you learn to tie stuff in order as well as three simple techniques;
and it's a pretty cool result that even a bad one can catch fish.
It's the kind of fly that will give you the confidence that maybe you
*can* get the hang of this fly tying stuff. I don't know about kids
at scouting age; but as an adult newbie, I thought it was an easy
first fly.
Joe F.


I agree completely with Joe's comments. I started tying about 1 1/2 months
ago. The olive woolly bugger was my first tie and I caught 6 fish on it
during my next outing. That got me excited enough to invest in a quality
vise and commit to tying pretty much everything I will use on two upcoming
trips! The hardest thing for me was stripping and holding the marabou.

On 28 Nov, 22:57, rb608 wrote:

I agree in principle; but speaking for myself (and everyone else in my
class IIRC), a simple tie-****-on-&-wrap-it-around-the-hook fly was
pretty easy to start with and almost impossible to screw up.
Obviously your experience with your students is otherwise, and I can't
argue with that.

Joe F.


There are always a few who grasp things quickly, and a few who grasp
things slowly. As soon as you have more than three people in a
"class", things start to become problematic. If you have more than six
it can be a lot worse, and more than ten is really really hard work.

Kids usually learn faster than adults, but many only have limited
attention spans, especially for fine work.

Adults learn more slowly but if it is something they want to do they
have much greater attention spans, and more perseverance per se.

None of this is the same as teaching one person to dress flies, and
there are other problems associated with teaching larger groups.

Normally you can only go as fast as the slowest person in the group.
There are organisational problems, and if you want to give people a
good grounding and show them how to dress good reliable flies, then
you can only do it in steps.

It is my feeling that the Woolly bugger is often recommended because
it is a good beginner "FISHING" fly, but it is not a good beginner
"DRESSING" fly.

I didn´t want to "argue" about it, but teaching a group of scouts is
much the same thing I do and have done regularly for over thirty
years. Trying something like a woolly bugger as the first fly is only
going to cause a lot of problems.

If the aim is to get people dressing flies that are easy and catch
fish, then simple hackle or dubbed body flies will also work, and give
a better grounding. One of the simplest flies, also suitable as a
first fly, and amazingly successful, often more successful than a
Woolly bugger, and for which materials are readily available, is this
one;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...r/creeper.html

Also, when people produce good reliable efforts in a relatively short
time, it automatically spurs them on to learn more. If they feel
frustrated and disappointed, they tend to give up.

TL
MC

On 28 Nov, 22:55, "Wolfgang" wrote:

Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.

Wolfgang

Mice are even more ridiculously difficult than Woolly buggers, and
present mountainous problems before they are finally brought forth.

TL
MC

On 28 Nov, 22:55, "Wolfgang" wrote:


Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.

Wolfgang

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TL
MC