OT - when politics gets personal

Knowing full well that this is pointless, but in all seriousness
anyway, what in the world makes you or anyone else think coverage
would cost any less then the aforementioned $1200/mo. under this
"fixed" health plan? Nothing in the plan seems to actually address
cost of coverage - it does seem to play musical chairs with who is
going to actually pay for it. Since they tout the plan as a zero cost
to the gvmt - that means that all costs included the additional cost
of the gvmt agencies overseeing this thing are going to have to be
covered by business (for their employees) or by the individual (suzy
homemaker maybe has to pay her own way I suppose)- ultimately it is
the private individual that gets the bill.

It will, of course, have to be paid for - dr's, hospitals,
chiropractors, lawyers, ins. co's, etc. all are going to get paid, or
they aren't going to exist. In this case, the way the new deal reads,
I think your friends would have a bigger problem than they have now -
because as a business they would have had to provide coverage for
themselves - or else the bill will just be added to their tax bill.
If it is a crippling cost to the business- then go get a real job.

As near as I can tell the latest plan is about a 1000 pages that says,
"you will have health coverage- because it is the law." So either
your employeer is going to have to adjust his cost of doing business
to accomodate the 1200 ish dollars per family/couple/whatever the hell
the family unit is. Or medicare or something suspiciously like
medicare is going to cough up the care costs - and whack the taxpayer
accordingly.

Where is the money going to come from for city, county, state
employees? oh, thats right- the same place the money comes from to
cover the private business employees.

Of course, no one will mind the added cost to all goods and serivces
across the board to fund coverage for 100% of the population - even
those unemployed or unemployable.

What I find interesting is that as a small employeer of union
ironworkers and carpenters, we are struggling to get work. Primarily
the issue is labor cost. A huge portion of our labor cost is the cost
of the union health and retirement funds. Nobody wants to pay the
rates we have to charge to keep my employees covered. As an example,
when was the last time you insisted that the builder who built your
home, deck, patio, installed your new range, installed your new
carpet, etc prove that he had health coverage for his employees? I'd
guess you took the low bid and ran with it.

I'm all for fixing health care - but lets fix costs. If the costs can
be contained - people will get coverage.

jh

On Feb 23, 4:09*pm, jh wrote:


I'm all for fixing health care - but lets fix costs. *If the costs can
be contained - people will get coverage.



I think we'd agree on more than disagree.

But, protecting "profits" in the health biz is at odds with
protecting people in the country. Other countries have shown
( varying methods and success ) that "reasonable" profits AND
reasonable costs are both possible.

From my view, a major political problem here is that Republicans
( both sides but far more obvious over there on the right ) are owned
by and work for drug companies, insurance companies, and Wall St {less
clearly related})

My guess is that you vote R because you think they will "defend" your
right to make as much money as you can and stash it away .... good old
American Dream. ( not that I argue against it in most cases )

My question, do YOU think health care and iron work construction fall
into the same category, i.e. free enterprise with only profit as a
worthwhile goal? Do you even really believe that "profit" is the only
important ( even the most important) product of your own biz? if so,
sorry

My question, do YOU think health care and iron work construction fall
into the same category, i.e. free enterprise with only profit as a
worthwhile goal? *Do you even really believe that "profit" is the only
important ( even the most important) product of your own biz? *if so,
sorry

no, of course profit is not the only important aspect of business. I
think it is pretty rare that you find a co. whos mission statement
consists of "profit"

I also think that profit is not the evil it is made out to be. Profit
allows the hospital to build the new cardiac wing, or add the new MRI
center, or ----.

In our case, profit may allow for the addition of new forklifts,
welders, safety gear, etc. strictly managing to pull in overhead w/o
profit pretty much means status quo. keep what you have going, pay
the rent, keep the lights turned on.

I have no prob. with insurance co.s making a profit, nor the Dr. that
yanks a messed up gall bladder. I do wish the ins. co's were more
efficient with their (my) money. From what I've learned, they have a
pretty substantial overhead cost - I think they need a bit more
competition so they can run a little leaner. At the same time, I
think they do their level best to get out of paying claims while
getting slaughtered by legislation that sticks them with costs that
were never intended to be covered. I seriously dislike ins. co's -
but I would absolutely not want to do what they do.

I think that coverage for all is a great idea- but the costs have to
be addressed realistically. I have no idea how many unisured people
there are in the US, but I am sure how ever many there are, they all
have the same, statistically speaking, health costs I have. So if you
dump them into the system - and they can't afford the costs of
coverage - my costs go up. If my costs go up, my cost of doing
business goes up, if my costs of business go up, either I gotta go
find free money, or I have to increase my bill to john Q customer.

actually a fairly simple concept.

I still think the answer is along the lines of catastrophic coverage -
say $10,000. under that is 100% on you, over that is 100% on
insurance. Think of the amount of paper that gets eliminated (paper =
money, it means secretaries, reviewers, auditors, etc etc etc), If
everyone had, and paid, for that policy there would be huge funds
available for those that needed catastrophic health care. Say one
person in 20 needs that kind of coverage in a given year, the premiums
would be drasticaly reduced - and you could afford a health savings
account that could build up to 10k in a couple three years, so the
9000 gall bladder surgery is cash payable. My premium runs $500/mo
for just me, cut it to 200 and let me stick 200-300 in an HSA, in 2 -
3 years assuming limited draws for little things, my one time 10 k
deal is paid for. gotta work the numbers - but I think something like
that would work.

jh

jh wrote:

Profit
allows the hospital to build the new cardiac wing, or add the new MRI
center, or ----.

not always john...the hospital/med school here just built a huge cardiac
center...in the hope for profit i'm sure, in the hope of keeping a
particular world famous doc happy i know, and in the hope of doing some
good for those who can afford or otherwise access the offered treatment.
it's a loss-leader so far, from what i hear. it's grand architecture
and offers hope. they charge a lot for their work...but i think the tax
dollars really made it happen, and will probably support it for a long
time. the cardiac surgeon is very pleased though...he's making a "profit".


imo, health care ought to be a civil right in a civilized society...we
have to get away from the idea that profit should drive or even be a
part of a reasonable and available health care system. ...and, yeah, i
know the slippery slope to socialism crap. but, wtf is a capitalist
government for if not to assure and provide for the health and welfare
of its citizens?

jeff (somewhere over the rainbow)

ps...john, any chance you'll get over to the madison in july? been way
too long since we've chased the trout.)

ps...john, any chance you'll get over to the madison in july? *been way
too long since we've chased the trout.)

unknown. As with many areas the economy in our little corner of the
world has taken a big whack. The paper mill shut down which was one of
the largest single private employers in the county, The outfall from
that (support contractors, suppliers, trucking, etc) has not really
been realized yet. The Plum Creek lumber mill in Bonner closed up last
year, Macy's is closing up shop next month, one hospital went through
a round of lay offs, the old Brady's Sportsmans Surplus closed its
doors. Meanwhile the recovery $ here are being spent on such high
minded projects as installing new windows in an old fish hatchery, re-
shingling some old ranger cabins, and a few misc. road resurfacing
projects.

Private money funded projects are almost non-existent and the banks
are locked up tighter than a drum. Talking to other contractors,
bankers, etc., the consensus is that we will be flat for at least 2
more years. Consequently, contractors are bidding things at absurd
rates and bidding over much larger geographical areas than they would
normally. A couple weeks back we lost a state funded project to a
Utah based contractor no one here has even heard of before. One friend
of mine told me they have been seeing bid prices at about 1995 levels,
but neither material nor labor costs are going down, so there will be
a lot of failures and/or wild backcharges.

Talking to the fly shop the other day, our snowpack in western mt is
about 55% of normal. George said that the snow has been at what he
considers drought levels for 8 of the last 11 years.

OTOH I may have lots of spare time this summer.

john

jh wrote:
ps...john, any chance you'll get over to the madison in july? been way
too long since we've chased the trout.)

unknown. As with many areas the economy in our little corner of the
world has taken a big whack. The paper mill shut down which was one of
the largest single private employers in the county, The outfall from
that (support contractors, suppliers, trucking, etc) has not really
been realized yet. The Plum Creek lumber mill in Bonner closed up last
year, Macy's is closing up shop next month, one hospital went through
a round of lay offs, the old Brady's Sportsmans Surplus closed its
doors. Meanwhile the recovery $ here are being spent on such high
minded projects as installing new windows in an old fish hatchery, re-
shingling some old ranger cabins, and a few misc. road resurfacing
projects.

Private money funded projects are almost non-existent and the banks
are locked up tighter than a drum. Talking to other contractors,
bankers, etc., the consensus is that we will be flat for at least 2
more years. Consequently, contractors are bidding things at absurd
rates and bidding over much larger geographical areas than they would
normally. A couple weeks back we lost a state funded project to a
Utah based contractor no one here has even heard of before. One friend
of mine told me they have been seeing bid prices at about 1995 levels,
but neither material nor labor costs are going down, so there will be
a lot of failures and/or wild backcharges.

Talking to the fly shop the other day, our snowpack in western mt is
about 55% of normal. George said that the snow has been at what he
considers drought levels for 8 of the last 11 years.

OTOH I may have lots of spare time this summer.

john


ouch...hope it works out so you need a well-desrved vacation from too
much work. if so, july 9-19.

jeff

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:30:59 -0500, jeff wrote:

jh wrote:

Profit
allows the hospital to build the new cardiac wing, or add the new MRI
center, or ----.

not always john...the hospital/med school here just built a huge cardiac
center...in the hope for profit i'm sure, in the hope of keeping a
particular world famous doc happy i know, and in the hope of doing some
good for those who can afford or otherwise access the offered treatment.
it's a loss-leader so far, from what i hear. it's grand architecture
and offers hope. they charge a lot for their work...but i think the tax
dollars really made it happen, and will probably support it for a long
time. the cardiac surgeon is very pleased though...he's making a "profit".


imo, health care ought to be a civil right in a civilized society...

And maybe - now I know this sounds pretty far out there, but bear with me -
equal access to the courts and reasonable representation once there ought to be
a civil right. Therefore, I'd propose that no one with a bar card be allowed to
charge more than the Federal minimum wage on any matter before any court until
April 16th of the current year PROVIDED that they have demonstrated their legal
qualifications by having prevailed for their client 60.1% of the time. And
until that rate of success is reached, they are bound by that wage. At the end
of the calendar year, the meter resets and any bar member not reaching 60.1% two
years in a row shall be deemed to be unsuited to the practice of law and
assigned to the gul...er, worker re-education...er, vocational reassignment
cen...oh, **** it, the doggeddamned prison camp located in the cosmopolitan
locale of Mosquito Haven, Florida until their "liquefied precipitation removal
system installation technician" training can be completed. If they cannot
successfully complete that, they should be turned over to Larry for, um,
close-order knot familiarization...or is what we have here a failure to
communicate...comrade...?

we
have to get away from the idea that profit should drive or even be a
part of a reasonable and available health care system. ...

And howsabout the legal system...? From what I hear tell, there's already rules
and codes and **** covering THAT...

and, yeah, i
know the slippery slope to socialism crap. but, wtf is a capitalist
government for if not to assure and provide for the health and welfare
of its citizens?

jeff (somewhere over the rainbow)

Judy Garland waits for you...?

TC,
R

On Feb 23, 9:51*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:30:59 -0500, jeff wrote:
jh wrote:

Profit
allows the hospital to build the new cardiac wing, or add the new MRI
center, or ----.

not always john...the hospital/med school here just built a huge cardiac
center...in the hope for profit i'm sure, in the hope of keeping a
particular world famous doc happy i know, and in the hope of doing some
good for those who can afford or otherwise access the offered treatment.
*it's a loss-leader so far, from what i hear. it's grand architecture
and offers hope. they charge a lot for their work...but i think the tax
dollars really made it happen, and will probably support it for a long
time. the cardiac surgeon is very pleased though...he's making a "profit".

imo, health care ought to be a civil right in a civilized society...

And maybe - now I know this sounds pretty far out there, but bear with me -
equal access to the courts and reasonable representation once there ought to be
a civil right. *Therefore, I'd propose that no one with a bar card be allowed to
charge more than the Federal minimum wage on any matter before any court until
April 16th of the current year PROVIDED that they have demonstrated their legal
qualifications by having prevailed for their client 60.1% of the time. *And
until that rate of success is reached, they are bound by that wage. *At the end
of the calendar year, the meter resets and any bar member not reaching 60..1% two
years in a row shall be deemed to be unsuited to the practice of law and
assigned to the gul...er, worker re-education...er, vocational reassignment
cen...oh, **** it, the doggeddamned prison camp located in the cosmopolitan
locale of Mosquito Haven, Florida until their "liquefied precipitation removal
system installation technician" training can be completed. *If they cannot
successfully complete that, they should be turned over to Larry for, um,
close-order knot familiarization...or is what we have here a failure to
communicate...comrade...?

we
have to get away from the idea that profit should drive or even be a
part of a reasonable and available health care system. ...

And howsabout the legal system...? *From what I hear tell, there's already rules
and codes and **** covering THAT...

and, yeah, i
know the slippery slope to socialism crap. but, wtf is a capitalist
government for if not to assure and provide for the health and welfare
of its citizens?

jeff (somewhere over the rainbow)

Judy Garland waits for you...?

TC,
R

Moron.

g.

well, at least he is dependable

I'd suggest that maybe you stick to trying to determine the std dev of
incompatable components and let it go at that.


jh

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:30:59 -0500, jeff wrote:

jh wrote:
Profit
allows the hospital to build the new cardiac wing, or add the new MRI
center, or ----.
not always john...the hospital/med school here just built a huge cardiac
center...in the hope for profit i'm sure, in the hope of keeping a
particular world famous doc happy i know, and in the hope of doing some
good for those who can afford or otherwise access the offered treatment.
it's a loss-leader so far, from what i hear. it's grand architecture
and offers hope. they charge a lot for their work...but i think the tax
dollars really made it happen, and will probably support it for a long
time. the cardiac surgeon is very pleased though...he's making a "profit".


imo, health care ought to be a civil right in a civilized society...

And maybe - now I know this sounds pretty far out there, but bear with me -
equal access to the courts and reasonable representation once there ought to be
a civil right. Therefore, I'd propose that no one with a bar card be allowed to
charge more than the Federal minimum wage on any matter before any court until
April 16th of the current year PROVIDED that they have demonstrated their legal
qualifications by having prevailed for their client 60.1% of the time. And
until that rate of success is reached, they are bound by that wage. At the end
of the calendar year, the meter resets and any bar member not reaching 60.1% two
years in a row shall be deemed to be unsuited to the practice of law and
assigned to the gul...er, worker re-education...er, vocational reassignment
cen...oh, **** it, the doggeddamned prison camp located in the cosmopolitan
locale of Mosquito Haven, Florida until their "liquefied precipitation removal
system installation technician" training can be completed. If they cannot
successfully complete that, they should be turned over to Larry for, um,
close-order knot familiarization...or is what we have here a failure to
communicate...comrade...?

we
have to get away from the idea that profit should drive or even be a
part of a reasonable and available health care system. ...

And howsabout the legal system...? From what I hear tell, there's already rules
and codes and **** covering THAT...

and, yeah, i
know the slippery slope to socialism crap. but, wtf is a capitalist
government for if not to assure and provide for the health and welfare
of its citizens?

jeff (somewhere over the rainbow)

Judy Garland waits for you...?

TC,
R

you know, there is merit in some of what you say. however, it won't
affect me much assuming overhead costs are a separate item and not
dependent on my fixed wages. ...tough to meet the proficiency
requirement though. in my area of practice, there are no winners.

jeff