OT - when politics gets personal

well, at least he is dependable

I'd suggest that maybe you stick to trying to determine the std dev of
incompatable components and let it go at that.


jh

On Feb 23, 10:35*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-23 17:54:19 -0500, Larry L said:





On Feb 23, 2:34 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:

Did cost me $1200 a
month. Is that not reasonable?

I doubt seriously they could afford that.

As for blaming
*... nothing, this last year could probably have changed my friends
situation, not enough time

*.... but the ****ing Repugnants with their filibuster mania forced
what really could have been well discussed, compromised, health care
reform to fail ( admittedly, partly because a few imbecile Democrats
had to be "accommodated") *because not even a few reasonable Repugs
were to be found in the hall )

*... shouting "no" is NOT leading, it's lying about being a leader

Larry, with all due respect, blaming it on the Republicans is not fair.
*The Democrats have major majorities in both Houses and occupy the WH. *
They could have passed *anything* that looked good. *What they came up
with was a pitiful mess that the majority of Americans do not want. *
They had to bribe pols to get the bills through, and even now, the
Senate version will NOT pass in the house because of its contents. *The
Republicans did not pen these bills; Democrats did and both Pelosi and
Reid know the bill is dead and going nowhere. *As far as Republican
actions on these bills...... I remember seeing Obama on the news
meeting *exclusively* with the Dems of both Houses. *The Republicans
were not invited.

Even if the Republicans voted 100% for the bills in the House and the
Senate, it would take *years* to impliment. *Your friend is not dying
because of anything Congress or the Senate did or did not do. *Perhaps
he should have planned better, ensured that he and his would always be
covered by some kind of insurance. *I did, and I am called an imbecile,
idiot, moron, uneducated, etc by the insane and nasty denizens in this
rat hole. *I don't mean to sound cruel, but there is no free lunch; if
you don't watch out for yourself, no one else will. *Plan, save, and do
it yourself. *Don't rely on the politicians, because they sure as hell
don't love you and yours, or me and mine. *Do you honestly think Nancy
and Harry care about your friend? *They don't. *They are the ruling
class; you, your friend, me - we aren't part of their world. *If every
pol voted what his/her constituents wanted, their would be no health
care bill as it now exists, but there *could* have been a bill that
everyone agreed upon if only the process was different. *I have but a
few years to live and I know I will not see universal health care in my
life time. *My children doubt they will see it, or even see Social
Security because we are so very deep in debt. *They know that DC
doesn't care **** about them, Republicans or Democrats.

I pray your friend has an easy time of it in the short time he has left.

Dave

Idiot.

Pig.

g.

On Feb 23, 8:35*pm, David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-23 17:54:19 -0500, Larry L said:





On Feb 23, 2:34 pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:

Did cost me $1200 a
month. Is that not reasonable?

I doubt seriously they could afford that.

As for blaming
*... nothing, this last year could probably have changed my friends
situation, not enough time

*.... but the ****ing Repugnants with their filibuster mania forced
what really could have been well discussed, compromised, health care
reform to fail ( admittedly, partly because a few imbecile Democrats
had to be "accommodated") *because not even a few reasonable Repugs
were to be found in the hall )

*... shouting "no" is NOT leading, it's lying about being a leader

Larry, with all due respect, blaming it on the Republicans is not fair.
*The Democrats have major majorities in both Houses and occupy the WH. *
They could have passed *anything* that looked good. *What they came up
with was a pitiful mess that the majority of Americans do not want. *
They had to bribe pols to get the bills through, and even now, the
Senate version will NOT pass in the house because of its contents. *The
Republicans did not pen these bills; Democrats did and both Pelosi and
Reid know the bill is dead and going nowhere. *As far as Republican
actions on these bills...... I remember seeing Obama on the news
meeting *exclusively* with the Dems of both Houses. *The Republicans
were not invited.

Even if the Republicans voted 100% for the bills in the House and the
Senate, it would take *years* to impliment. *Your friend is not dying
because of anything Congress or the Senate did or did not do. *Perhaps
he should have planned better, ensured that he and his would always be
covered by some kind of insurance. *I did, and I am called an imbecile,
idiot, moron, uneducated, etc by the insane and nasty denizens in this
rat hole. *I don't mean to sound cruel, but there is no free lunch; if
you don't watch out for yourself, no one else will. *Plan, save, and do
it yourself. *Don't rely on the politicians, because they sure as hell
don't love you and yours, or me and mine. *Do you honestly think Nancy
and Harry care about your friend? *They don't. *They are the ruling
class; you, your friend, me - we aren't part of their world. *If every
pol voted what his/her constituents wanted, their would be no health
care bill as it now exists, but there *could* have been a bill that
everyone agreed upon if only the process was different. *I have but a
few years to live and I know I will not see universal health care in my
life time. *My children doubt they will see it, or even see Social
Security because we are so very deep in debt. *They know that DC
doesn't care **** about them, Republicans or Democrats.

I pray your friend has an easy time of it in the short time he has left.

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dave that is really naive. You need to read more before you join the
choirs. The "Obama" bill contains many of the provisions worked out in
Mass by Republican Romney. And the "Obama" bill also includes several
features from the old Senator Coburn Republican health-care reform
legislation. Period. Why do you think so many liberal Dems feel Obama
has compromised too much?

People who follow this stuff in DC know that what is going on is part
of a slash and burn strategy imposed by ultra conservatives of the
National Committee of the Republican Party. The objective is to deny
the Democrats credit for reforming health care. Its a risky strategy
because the "Tea Party" movement is such an unpredictable factor and
is resistant to the full court press for control of the Party radicals
and right wing ideologues like Grover Norquist and Dick Armey. The
"Teas" could turn on these 2nd wave "conservative" dinosaurs in a
minute. And finally the GOP risks exposure as a "puppet for hire" by
international capitalism, if the recession's effects persist too long,
and they overplay their hand trying to brand Obama as some kind of
Communist with all this outdated 1950s rhetoric.

There has been all kinds of quiet bi-partisan work constructing the
"Obama Bill" and that is well known in DC. But GOP party discipline
and threats of retaliation by the notorious "Club for Growth" has
pummeled even the Republican cooperators into silence. I keep
believing that patriotism will trump party politics and some of the
"silent Republican moderates" will break ranks with the dinosaurs and
start earning their pay.

Hard ball Politics, that's what is going on. And the American people
are the worse for it.

Dave

jh wrote:
ps...john, any chance you'll get over to the madison in july? been way
too long since we've chased the trout.)

unknown. As with many areas the economy in our little corner of the
world has taken a big whack. The paper mill shut down which was one of
the largest single private employers in the county, The outfall from
that (support contractors, suppliers, trucking, etc) has not really
been realized yet. The Plum Creek lumber mill in Bonner closed up last
year, Macy's is closing up shop next month, one hospital went through
a round of lay offs, the old Brady's Sportsmans Surplus closed its
doors. Meanwhile the recovery $ here are being spent on such high
minded projects as installing new windows in an old fish hatchery, re-
shingling some old ranger cabins, and a few misc. road resurfacing
projects.

Private money funded projects are almost non-existent and the banks
are locked up tighter than a drum. Talking to other contractors,
bankers, etc., the consensus is that we will be flat for at least 2
more years. Consequently, contractors are bidding things at absurd
rates and bidding over much larger geographical areas than they would
normally. A couple weeks back we lost a state funded project to a
Utah based contractor no one here has even heard of before. One friend
of mine told me they have been seeing bid prices at about 1995 levels,
but neither material nor labor costs are going down, so there will be
a lot of failures and/or wild backcharges.

Talking to the fly shop the other day, our snowpack in western mt is
about 55% of normal. George said that the snow has been at what he
considers drought levels for 8 of the last 11 years.

OTOH I may have lots of spare time this summer.

john


ouch...hope it works out so you need a well-desrved vacation from too
much work. if so, july 9-19.

jeff

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:30:59 -0500, jeff wrote:

jh wrote:
Profit
allows the hospital to build the new cardiac wing, or add the new MRI
center, or ----.
not always john...the hospital/med school here just built a huge cardiac
center...in the hope for profit i'm sure, in the hope of keeping a
particular world famous doc happy i know, and in the hope of doing some
good for those who can afford or otherwise access the offered treatment.
it's a loss-leader so far, from what i hear. it's grand architecture
and offers hope. they charge a lot for their work...but i think the tax
dollars really made it happen, and will probably support it for a long
time. the cardiac surgeon is very pleased though...he's making a "profit".


imo, health care ought to be a civil right in a civilized society...

And maybe - now I know this sounds pretty far out there, but bear with me -
equal access to the courts and reasonable representation once there ought to be
a civil right. Therefore, I'd propose that no one with a bar card be allowed to
charge more than the Federal minimum wage on any matter before any court until
April 16th of the current year PROVIDED that they have demonstrated their legal
qualifications by having prevailed for their client 60.1% of the time. And
until that rate of success is reached, they are bound by that wage. At the end
of the calendar year, the meter resets and any bar member not reaching 60.1% two
years in a row shall be deemed to be unsuited to the practice of law and
assigned to the gul...er, worker re-education...er, vocational reassignment
cen...oh, **** it, the doggeddamned prison camp located in the cosmopolitan
locale of Mosquito Haven, Florida until their "liquefied precipitation removal
system installation technician" training can be completed. If they cannot
successfully complete that, they should be turned over to Larry for, um,
close-order knot familiarization...or is what we have here a failure to
communicate...comrade...?

we
have to get away from the idea that profit should drive or even be a
part of a reasonable and available health care system. ...

And howsabout the legal system...? From what I hear tell, there's already rules
and codes and **** covering THAT...

and, yeah, i
know the slippery slope to socialism crap. but, wtf is a capitalist
government for if not to assure and provide for the health and welfare
of its citizens?

jeff (somewhere over the rainbow)

Judy Garland waits for you...?

TC,
R

you know, there is merit in some of what you say. however, it won't
affect me much assuming overhead costs are a separate item and not
dependent on my fixed wages. ...tough to meet the proficiency
requirement though. in my area of practice, there are no winners.

jeff

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:55:06 -0500, jeff wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:30:59 -0500, jeff wrote:

jh wrote:
Profit
allows the hospital to build the new cardiac wing, or add the new MRI
center, or ----.
not always john...the hospital/med school here just built a huge cardiac
center...in the hope for profit i'm sure, in the hope of keeping a
particular world famous doc happy i know, and in the hope of doing some
good for those who can afford or otherwise access the offered treatment.
it's a loss-leader so far, from what i hear. it's grand architecture
and offers hope. they charge a lot for their work...but i think the tax
dollars really made it happen, and will probably support it for a long
time. the cardiac surgeon is very pleased though...he's making a "profit".


imo, health care ought to be a civil right in a civilized society...

And maybe - now I know this sounds pretty far out there, but bear with me -
equal access to the courts and reasonable representation once there ought to be
a civil right. Therefore, I'd propose that no one with a bar card be allowed to
charge more than the Federal minimum wage on any matter before any court until
April 16th of the current year PROVIDED that they have demonstrated their legal
qualifications by having prevailed for their client 60.1% of the time. And
until that rate of success is reached, they are bound by that wage. At the end
of the calendar year, the meter resets and any bar member not reaching 60.1% two
years in a row shall be deemed to be unsuited to the practice of law and
assigned to the gul...er, worker re-education...er, vocational reassignment
cen...oh, **** it, the doggeddamned prison camp located in the cosmopolitan
locale of Mosquito Haven, Florida until their "liquefied precipitation removal
system installation technician" training can be completed. If they cannot
successfully complete that, they should be turned over to Larry for, um,
close-order knot familiarization...or is what we have here a failure to
communicate...comrade...?

we
have to get away from the idea that profit should drive or even be a
part of a reasonable and available health care system. ...

And howsabout the legal system...? From what I hear tell, there's already rules
and codes and **** covering THAT...

and, yeah, i
know the slippery slope to socialism crap. but, wtf is a capitalist
government for if not to assure and provide for the health and welfare
of its citizens?

jeff (somewhere over the rainbow)

Judy Garland waits for you...?

TC,
R

you know, there is merit in some of what you say. however, it won't
affect me much assuming overhead costs are a separate item

Overhead costs...? Oh, wait...you won't have a heated and cooled office, a
paralegal, secretary, etc. You'll be issued a box of #2s, a package of legal
pads, a box of file folders and an orange crate that can serve as both a desk
and a file cabinet. Oh, by-the-by, save the pad backs and pencil stubs - in the
summer, you'll have a ready supply of fans and in winter, you'll have something
to burn for heat...keep in mind, however, if you get uppity and burn the
orang...er, ,multi-purpose office unit, legal, non-metallic, recycled, the total
cost of replacement, including shipping, handling, delivery and set-up from the
Cheney-Halliburton Office Supply Company WILL be deducted from your pay packet
and you WILL lose 1 cat food ration stamp each week for 6 weeks...and before you
go there - no, $134,324.17 for an orang...er, multi-purpose office unit, legal,
non-metallic, recycled, isn't excessive....it was 12.3% less than the bid from
Reid-Pelosi Furnishings...

and not dependent on my fixed wages. ...tough to meet the proficiency
requirement though. in my area of practice, there are no winners.

Uh-oh, sorry - more changes...you'll not have a divorce practice anymore as
there will be no more marriages, per se. "Marriage" has religious overtones,
and as such, it will not be officially permitted or recognized (plus, that
solves the whole "gay marriage" question). You'll be reassigned to traffic
court...snow chain infraction division...but the good news is that you'll be
allowed to draw straws for prosecution or defense...

TC,
R

jeff

In article ,
jh writes:
My question, do YOU think health care and iron work construction fall
into the same category, i.e. free enterprise with only profit as a
worthwhile goal? *Do you even really believe that "profit" is the only
important ( even the most important) product of your own biz? *if so,
sorry
no, of course profit is not the only important aspect of business. I
think it is pretty rare that you find a co. whos mission statement
consists of "profit"
I also think that profit is not the evil it is made out to be. Profit
allows the hospital to build the new cardiac wing, or add the new MRI
center, or ----.


And yet, I remember a time when virtually all hospitals were non-profit.


In our case, profit may allow for the addition of new forklifts,
welders, safety gear, etc. strictly managing to pull in overhead w/o
profit pretty much means status quo. keep what you have going, pay
the rent, keep the lights turned on.
I have no prob. with insurance co.s making a profit, nor the Dr. that
yanks a messed up gall bladder. I do wish the ins. co's were more
efficient with their (my) money. From what I've learned, they have a
pretty substantial overhead cost - I think they need a bit more
competition so they can run a little leaner. At the same time, I


One such overhead cost is, of course, the co.s' salaries. I think it
was in 2005 or 2006 that one co made 1 out of every 6 dollars spent in
the country on health care.


think they do their level best to get out of paying claims while
getting slaughtered by legislation that sticks them with costs that
were never intended to be covered. I seriously dislike ins. co's -
but I would absolutely not want to do what they do.
I think that coverage for all is a great idea- but the costs have to
be addressed realistically. I have no idea how many unisured people
there are in the US, but I am sure how ever many there are, they all
have the same, statistically speaking, health costs I have. So if you
dump them into the system - and they can't afford the costs of
coverage - my costs go up. If my costs go up, my cost of doing
business goes up, if my costs of business go up, either I gotta go
find free money, or I have to increase my bill to john Q customer.
actually a fairly simple concept.


We're talking 40-50 million. Many of these people can't afford
insurance, but many others are healthy and don't see the point of
having insurance. As these people are not paying into the system,
the costs are somewhat driven by having a subscriber base with
somewhat poorer health than the population in general. Having the
requrirement that everyone pay into the system should reduce overall
costs, as the costs are spread over a larger group.

Before you argue that the healthy people don't really need insurance,
they certainly will eventually need it.


I still think the answer is along the lines of catastrophic coverage -
say $10,000. under that is 100% on you, over that is 100% on
insurance. Think of the amount of paper that gets eliminated (paper =
money, it means secretaries, reviewers, auditors, etc etc etc), If
everyone had, and paid, for that policy there would be huge funds
available for those that needed catastrophic health care. Say one
person in 20 needs that kind of coverage in a given year, the premiums
would be drasticaly reduced - and you could afford a health savings
account that could build up to 10k in a couple three years, so the
9000 gall bladder surgery is cash payable. My premium runs $500/mo
for just me, cut it to 200 and let me stick 200-300 in an HSA, in 2 -
3 years assuming limited draws for little things, my one time 10 k
deal is paid for. gotta work the numbers - but I think something like
that would work.
jh


a) Many cannot afford $10,000 in health costs. b) Yes, the paperwork
required is insane. I think a lot of that is to make it painful to
use insurance. c) Health savings accounts are great as long as those
companies don't go bankrupt (it has happened) and people actually has
the resources and discipline to actually contribute to health savings
accounts.


__________________________________________________ ______________________
Craig A. Gullixson
Technical Support Manager INTERNET:
National Solar Observatory/Sac. Peak PHONE: (575) 434-7065
Sunspot, NM 88349 USA FAX: (575) 434-7029

a) Many cannot afford $10,000 in health costs. *b) *Yes, the paperwork
required is insane. *I think a lot of that is to make it painful to
use insurance. *c) *Health savings accounts are great as long as those
companies don't go bankrupt (it has happened) and people actually has
the resources and discipline to actually contribute to health savings
accounts.

__________________________________________________ ______________________
Craig A. Gullixson
Technical Support Manager * * * * * * * INTERNET:
National Solar Observatory/Sac. Peak * *PHONE: (575) 434-7065
Sunspot, NM 88349 USA * * * * * * * * * FAX: (575) 434-7029

no, they can't- so it becomes a sliding scale based on income/personal
wealth? catastrophic for me is somewhat different than catastrophic
for "nameyourfavoritefamousperson" or the homeless person down the
street. The point is, I think if my premiums were reduced
substantially from what they are, I could take the diff and stick it
into some sort of HSA and I would be able to write that 10,000 check
every 3-5 years. This presumes of course that I have the interest and/
or foresight to actually do this rather than buy a new flatscreen or
the latest boron flyrod or ---- whatever. It still comes down to
being responsible for your own actions. I also think that if your
local insurance co. were not involved whatsoever in your day to day
runs to the free clinic, the clinic would have more time to devote to
the actual issue, rather than a "whose your insurance" interogation
which should lead to lower costs and better service. everbody gets
there own HSA and a debit card to match.

The not-for-profit thing is something of a red herring also. I know
of more than a few folks that make substantial incomes managing not-
for-profit organizations. So while the corp or whatever entitiy is
not-for-profit, those employed to manage or operate them can do quite
well.

john

On Feb 24, 10:59*am, (Craig Gullixson) wrote:

And yet, I remember a time when virtually all hospitals were non-profit

Non-profit is a tax status, not an operating model.

While the intent is noble in that the business gaining a non-profit
status is in theory not operated for a profit, the fact remains that a
non-profit entity such as a hospital must operate in a model where
revenues exceed expenses in order to maintain an appropriate level of
capability, replace capital equipment as the needs and changes in
diagnostic/therapeutic treatment dictate, and continue to pay a
competitive raise to its employees. Non Profits raise capital through
donations, grants, commercial lenders, and the bond market. They are
subject to the same bond ratings as anyone else and in order to borrow
funds to help fund strategic needs, the higher the bond rating, the
lower the interests and other costs much the same way a person's
credit rating determines their interest rates when obtaining a
mortgage. Personally I don't know of many organizations, especially in
today's eenvironment, that are truly "non-profit" and have access to
capital funding.

In exchange for the non-profit status the entity is not subject to
various taxes, though it differs by state and is expected to provide a
certain level of charity care and community benefit.

Medicare used to reimburse hospitals on a cost basis for the Medicare
patients that the hospital serviced. That is the cost of operations,
not the charges. Cast based reimbursement is a 100% tax on profits so
even the "for profit" hospitals did not technically make a profit on
medicare. Even so, the costs in total was growing to the point that it
was not sustainable because hospitals were not seen as a true business
operation since the system gave them no incentive to be effecient.

Beginning in the 80's they migrated to a payment formula that replaced
the cost based methodology for most hospitals to a payment system that
was based on a patient illness classification system. Essentially it
is a per patient payment that is based on the diagnosis or treatment
performed. The idea was to force hospitals to lessen costs and get
efficient like any other business. If the hospital kept their average
costs under the flat rate payment, the hospital made a profit. If the
hospital could not get the cost down then they lost money. Even the
feds realize that non-profit does not mean non-profit.

FWIW, I spent over 25 years in the "for-profit" healthcare industry
and have spent the last ssix years in a faith based "non-profit"
organization. The differences are not as great as one might would like
to believe.

On Feb 23, 11:19*pm, Giles wrote:

No, those are all "costs."

They are not all "costs", while they may be a use of cash which some
mistakenly consider "costs". Some of what he mentions are capital and
operating investments, as well as inventory which will be used to
support the business and maintain its capability. Capitals assets are
expensed over some time period which is supposed to approximate their
servicable life so their costs of use are some portion of the actual
cost of the equipment whereas the inventory investments are typically
expensed when the sale occurs.

Wayne
Accountants are us
..