Bull Trout

Chas Wade wrote:

The most important thing I learned in college was that everybody's an
asshole. The hard part was realizing that everybody includes me. If
you'd straightened me out about the Oak Springs hatchery and worded
your comment a little differently I probably wouldn't have been
compelled to point out that you too are part of "everybody".

True. Part of my problem is that I tend to look into ROFF on my work
computer at the end of the workday, and by that time I'm usually ****ed
off about some damn thing or other. That, together with my
long-simmering annoyance over the current management of what could be
a good thing (the ODFW hatchery program), made me all too predisposed
to be ornery for no good reason, I guess.

But then, I figure if everybody worded their comments a little
differently, ROFF would be, if not entirely suffused with sweetness and
light, certainly a lot less lively.

ODFW does do a good job, I think, with the Deschutes hatchery summer
steelhead. The fish are bred at the Round Butte hatchery (which is run
by ODFW but owned by Portland General Electric Co), with brood
stock taken from the Pelton dam fish ladder. It's good to hear that
they find new fresh brood stock each year. I think that didn't used
to be the case. It's an interesting operation, but unlike Oak Springs
you can't just drop in to visit; you need to phone ahead to make
arrangements.

Tight lines,

JR

"JR" wrote in message ...
But then, I figure if everybody worded their comments a little
differently, ROFF would be, if not entirely suffused with sweetness and
light, certainly a lot less lively.

JR

================================================== ===
The problem is that the vicious attacks that regularly fly back and forth in
this newsgroup are almost certainly of zero interest to anybody except the
protagonists. Unfortunately, it is not possible to know from a header what
is contained in a post without actually opening it and reading it; otherwise
I for one, would not waste my time opening many posts to this newsgroup.
The intemperate nature of contributions in recent times may have discouraged
new people from participating. Who wants to be insulted by someone who
doesn't even know them? It happened to me. And as others have noted, the
preponderance of off-topic posts may have caused many who used to post to
give up. I was actually beginning to wonder if OT should be re-defined as
"On Topic" and reserved for posts about flyfishing because sometimes there
seem to be far fewer of them than off-topic posts. This would minimize
wasted time for the (probable) majority not interested in reading about
American politics in a flyfishing forum and who are innocently looking for
talk about fishing. However, judging from recent posts, the worst of it
seems to have passed. Another observation is that the number posters seems
to be shrinking to a smaller and smaller core group- something is happening
and I don't think it is good. Maybe it is just Darwinism in play. I
disagree with your comment about wording, I don't think the discussions
would be any less lively if people were nice to each other because I think
more people would participate and more ideas would come forth.



Beat regards,



Yuji Sakuma

"Yuji Sakuma" wrote in message
.. .


The problem is that the vicious attacks that regularly fly back and
forth in
this newsgroup are almost certainly of zero interest to anybody
except the
protagonists. Unfortunately, it is not possible to know from a
header what
is contained in a post without actually opening it and reading it;
otherwise
I for one, would not waste my time opening many posts to this
newsgroup.
The intemperate nature of contributions in recent times may have
discouraged
new people from participating. Who wants to be insulted by someone
who
doesn't even know them? It happened to me. And as others have
noted, the
preponderance of off-topic posts may have caused many who used to
post to
give up. I was actually beginning to wonder if OT should be
re-defined as
"On Topic" and reserved for posts about flyfishing because sometimes
there
seem to be far fewer of them than off-topic posts. This would
minimize
wasted time for the (probable) majority not interested in reading
about
American politics in a flyfishing forum and who are innocently
looking for
talk about fishing.

Engaging in insult and invective puts one in the company of (if not
necessarily on a par with) the likes of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Swift,
Clemens, Wilde, Shaw, Mencken, and innumerable lesser luminaries, and
that's just the ones who wrote in English. Hell, you can buy whole
books full of the **** the ancient Romans used to fling at one
another. People have been doing this for about as long as they've had
the means to communicate with one another. Complaints about it
probably started within seconds after the first sample was offered.
Doubtless, you can see the effect it's had so far. It's nice to think
of what a world full of nice people might be like, but I don't think
it would be as interesting as the one we live in. No murder? Yeah,
that would be cool...but then there'd be no Hamlet. No
slavery?.....no Huck Finn. It's a trade off. Scale it down a bit and
we end up something like the difference between a moderated news group
and ROFF. Your freedom to say what you please, including registering
complaints about what someone else might say, comes at the price of
everyone else's freedom to do the same.


However, judging from recent posts, the worst of it
seems to have passed.

It'll be back.

Another observation is that the number posters seems
to be shrinking to a smaller and smaller core group- something is
happening
and I don't think it is good.

The number of posters shrinks and then it expands and then it shrinks
and then it expands.......

Nothing is happening that hasn't happened many times before and it
will continue to happen, off and on, for as long as unmoderated usenet
groups survive which, to be sure, may not be all that long. You see,
the REAL problem, as I've mentioned here before, is that unmoderated
usenet groups are the closest thing to a democratic institution that
the world has ever seen......and a LOT of people simply don't like
democracy very much. What's happening here that isn't good is what
always happens to free speech.

Maybe it is just Darwinism in play.

That metaphor has long been stretched way past the breaking point. No
one has to participate here. Darwin had nothing to say about such a
world.

I
disagree with your comment about wording, I don't think the
discussions
would be any less lively if people were nice to each other because I
think
more people would participate and more ideas would come forth.

There are plenty of moderated fishing fora on the web. How do they
compare? More to the point, if they are better why would anyone
interested only in talk of fishing even WANT to be here? There may be
places on the internet where people discuss fishing nicely and in a
lively fashion, but I haven't found any myself. Nor have I seen one
in which more ideas come forth than here. Any recommendations?

Wolfgang

"Wolfgang" wrote...
"Yuji Sakuma" wrote...
The problem is that the vicious attacks that regularly fly back and
forth in this newsgroup are almost certainly of zero interest to anybody
except the protagonists.

Nah. It's like a train wreck - sometimes a person can't help but stare at the
carnage.

snip
However, judging from recent posts, the worst of it
seems to have passed.

It'll be back.

Fer sure. It's kinda like passing a kidney stone, going through the unspeakable
pain, and having the doctor say, "Well, at least you got that small one out of
the way." ;-)
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Hi Wolfgang,

The Darwinism metaphor might have been inappropriate but I used it from the
angle that natural selection might be leading toward a result that only
those who thrive in the insults, bad language, politics, etc. in this
newsgroup will remain standing. Everyone else will be driven out. Which is
exactly what you are saying ought to happen because it's a democracy. Maybe
so, but this could end up with the newgroup being co-opted by a handful of
people instead being supported by a potentially large number of fly
fishermen with a wide spectrum of interests and attitudes who might interact
and enjoy the newsgroup. Okay, maybe guys like Shakespeare, etc., did use
insult as a means of expression as you say but so what? Out of all
flyfishermen, I would venture to say that few have even read Shakespeare and
the others mentioned more than just superficially, let alone enjoyed them.
Probably, like me, they were forced to read him in high school and never
bothered to do so again. Yes, I know that you are a big fan of insult and I
have also seen that you have plenty of interesting things to say.
Nevertheless, I don't think flinging insults at each other is considered
customary good behaviour in today's society. But much worse than that, I
think it that it is actually boring for innocent bystanders. In my opinion,
posts to newgroups should have general interest, not just be two
perpetrators duking it out in a private vendetta. I was gratified to see
Charles and JR come to their senses; there was good information in their
communications but the trading of insults detracted from my enjoyment of it.
Now, insults used in jest are a totally different matter, they can be some
of the best humour around and I do enjoy them. American politics is
important to everyone in the world, including to non-Americans like me, but
I get my fix elsewhere. I see no logical reason why it should be discussed
in a flyfishing newsgroup - aren't there any politics newsgroups around?

Best regards,

Yuji Sakuma



================================================== ================

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"Yuji Sakuma" wrote...
Hi Wolfgang,

Ahhh, but you are NOT just writing to Wolfgang. 'Tis the beauty of Usenet.
Unless you meant to send a private correspondence and posted here instead, but
no one else has EVER done that.

The Darwinism metaphor might have been inappropriate but I used it from the
angle that natural selection might be leading toward a result that only
those who thrive in the insults, bad language, politics, etc. in this
newsgroup will remain standing. Everyone else will be driven out.

No, everyone else can freely choose whether they stay or not.

snip
Yes, I know that you are a big fan of insult and I
have also seen that you have plenty of interesting things to say.
Nevertheless, I don't think flinging insults at each other is considered
customary good behaviour in today's society. But much worse than that, I
think it that it is actually boring for innocent bystanders. In my opinion,
posts to newgroups should have general interest, not just be two
perpetrators duking it out in a private vendetta.

I guess we ought to get rid of boxing, fencing, tennis, and all other one-on-one
sports because they MUST be boring their fans to tears. ;-)

I was gratified to see
Charles and JR come to their senses; there was good information in their
communications but the trading of insults detracted from my enjoyment of it.
Now, insults used in jest are a totally different matter, they can be some
of the best humour around and I do enjoy them.

You Canukistanis wouldn't know jest if it up and bit you on the ass. (How was
that?)

American politics is
important to everyone in the world, including to non-Americans like me, but
I get my fix elsewhere. I see no logical reason why it should be discussed
in a flyfishing newsgroup - aren't there any politics newsgroups around?

You probably should take a few moments to do a little reading:
http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/ (or "Read the FAQ, Jack")
--
HTH,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

"Yuji Sakuma" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Wolfgang,

Out of all
flyfishermen, I would venture to say that few have even read Shakespeare
and
the others mentioned more than just superficially, let alone enjoyed them.
Probably, like me, they were forced to read him in high school and never
bothered to do so again.

Yuji, your main point makes some sense, but this bit about Shakespeare
doesn't. Try him again as an adult. And the Tales, and Tanizaki and
Kawabata too. :-) I think you might be surprised how many on this NG have
read Tand K above, as well as S.

Dave

Yuji Sakuma wrote:
Hi Wolfgang,

The Darwinism metaphor might have been inappropriate but I used it from the
angle that natural selection might be leading toward a result that only
those who thrive in the insults, bad language, politics, etc. in this
newsgroup will remain standing. Everyone else will be driven out. Which is
exactly what you are saying ought to happen because it's a democracy. Maybe
so, but this could end up with the newgroup being co-opted by a handful of
people instead being supported by a potentially large number of fly
fishermen with a wide spectrum of interests and attitudes who might interact
and enjoy the newsgroup. ...

It does absolutely no good at all to complain about the decorum of an
unmoderated Usenet newsgroup. All the folderol about this newsgroup
being populated with scores of intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable
fly fisherman who would write prolifically and sweetly on all things
fly fishing if only the malcontents would play nice is nothing but
dry humping the ****ing keyboard by clueless newbies and old-timey
pricks.

You want sweetness and nice, start your own damn forum.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Wolfgang wrote:


Engaging in insult and invective puts one in the company of (if not
necessarily on a par with) the likes of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Swift,
Clemens, Wilde, Shaw, Mencken, and innumerable lesser luminaries, and
that's just the ones who wrote in English.

****! You must be VERY special. None of those guys ever insulted me.


Maybe it is just Darwinism in play.


That metaphor has long been stretched way past the breaking point. No
one has to participate here. Darwin had nothing to say about such a
world.


I
disagree with your comment about wording, I don't think the

discussions

would be any less lively if people were nice to each other because I

think

more people would participate and more ideas would come forth.


There are plenty of moderated fishing fora on the web. How do they
compare? More to the point, if they are better why would anyone
interested only in talk of fishing even WANT to be here?


That one too "has long been stretched way past the breaking point". If
someone complains about personal attacks, the lack of fishing related
talk or some of the other behavior on ROFF, the assumption is
immediately made that the person ONLY wants to talk about fishing. That
MAY be true but maybe that person is just commenting about some things
he doesn't like. For example, it seems to me that if it is OK for
someone to be called an "asshole", it's also OK for that person to
complain about it.

Willi

"Willi" wrote

For example, it seems to me that if it is OK for
someone to be called an "asshole", it's also OK for that person to
complain about it.

i have your back on that one, willi.

so, forty can sleep well, tonight.

yfitons
wayno (no, i am *not* sure that that's what i meant...)