A Plea for Sanity

All,
It has been noted, by some who a regulars, and some who are less frequent
posters, that ROFF has gotten nearly painful to read of late. Bitter exchanges,
misinterpretations, off-hand insults and the like are far too common, the
latest example being Dave LaCourse's "dialogue" with several folks. Perhaps it
is, as suggested, the annual "cabin fever". I think, in some cases, it goes
deeper than that. Here in the US, we are in the midst of a divisive election
year. Further, as noted in his own posts, David has some serious health
worries. I think such worries can, and do, color one's tolerance and manner of
dealing with others. About a year back, Mike Connor and I had a bitter
exchange, which upon reflection was probably made far more virulent by the fact
that both of us were in distress over the health of a loved one. Not that such
are excuses, but I am here to make a plea for tolerance of others which seems
to have evaporated from the posts of some on here. As Wolfgang noted in another
thread, this place has been capable of spawning friendships, fishing
partnerships and a special kind of kinship among its participants over the past
10 years. I have always enjoyed the intellectual debates and downright
silliness that occurs here, but as wayno noted, the tearing asunder of
friendships is painful to watch. I beg for sanity, and an attempt to understand
the feeling of others. Take the tongue-in-check stuff with a grain of salt,
understand the limitations of Usenet communication and try to bring something
to the table that is positive once in a while. I'll probably get the
predicatable amount of response along the lines of "don't tell me what to
do...",etc, but really couldn't care less. I am not telling anyone what to do,
just hoping that some can find it in their souls to do the right thing, and act
like adults.
Tom

Tommy Littleton cued the sappy violin sound track and pleaded:

... Not that such
are excuses, but I am here to make a plea for tolerance of others which seems
to have evaporated from the posts of some on here. ...

**** that ****.

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Tom Littleton" wrote...
All,
It has been noted, by some who a regulars, and some who are less frequent
posters, that ROFF has gotten nearly painful to read of late. Bitter
exchanges,
misinterpretations, off-hand insults and the like are far too common, snip

Yeah, it sure would be good if the personal name calling and insults could be
taken off-line before they get placed on display here.

Oh, and FYT.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

On 06 Mar 2004 13:55:31 GMT, (Tom Littleton) wrote:

[a lot of reasonable stuff snipped]

I'll probably get the
predicatable amount of response along the lines of "don't tell me what to
do...",etc, but really couldn't care less. I am not telling anyone what to do,
just hoping that some can find it in their souls to do the right thing, and act
like adults.
Tom

While I agree 100%, I'm afraid that things won't change much for some
cannot challenge another's assertion without going personal, or
respond to an honest, open challenge, without personal commentary. I
doubt that will change. About all the rest can do is to killfile the
thread, (and only the thread) and refrain from joining in. If one
prefers not to killfile the thread because he/she enjoys blood sports,
then don't complain about all the OT & personal crap afterward.

It's blindingly obvious and has been stated a gazillion times: no one
is forced to post anything and no one is forced to read anything.
Intelligent use of one's newsreader client can provide a reasonable
solution to most issues.

About the only problem I see emerging is the apparent slowdown in the
accretion of new "regulars". The newsreader stats posted by Forty
seems to indicate a reduction in new/return posters and the same old,
same old dominating the charts. The seemingly endless internecine
warfare has to be turn-off for newbies. As I said previously, wayno
calls this place Darwinian and Darwin's theories include extinction.


Peter

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Peter Charles wrote:

About the only problem I see emerging is the apparent slowdown in the
accretion of new "regulars". The newsreader stats posted by Forty
seems to indicate a reduction in new/return posters and the same old,
same old dominating the charts. The seemingly endless internecine
warfare has to be turn-off for newbies. As I said previously, wayno
calls this place Darwinian and Darwin's theories include extinction.


The attrition of regular posters without being replaced new people, will
lead to deterioration. The infighting with the regulars is one thing and
it can dominate the conversations and go over board especially in the
Winter, but I think the part of ROFF that is most self destructive is
the game - "abuse the newbe" - that some people seem to find entertaining.

Personally, I find it hard to come up with any "on topic" stuff in the
middle of the Winter and fall into the "****" now and again. Spring is
just around the corner and I'm willing to bet things will improve. At
least I'll have more to say.

Willi

"Tom Littleton" wrote in message
...
All,
It has been noted, by some who a regulars, and some who are less
frequent
posters, that ROFF has gotten nearly painful to read of late.

(snip well-reasoned plea for future group self-control)

over the winter, i have returned to my lifelong love of playing/singing
acoustic guitar. naturally, i sought a usenet group that expressed a shared
interest in the activity. the group, rmmga (rec. music. makers. guitar.
acoustic), is, in many ways, similar to roff. there is an obvious core
group of regulars (often referred to as the "inner circle") of about the
same size as here--i would estimate twenty to thirty would be a good guess.
they often discuss ot subjects, and they have their inside jokes, developed
from their clave-like regional meetings, which they call "gatherings".
their talent levels vary from rank beginners (even though those types may be
found among the "inner circle" of long time posters) to the highest level of
professional talent. they distribute, for a nominal cost, a collection of
songs/pieces about once a year, organized, collated, and produced by certain
of their membership. while the number of "regulars" is about the same as
roff, the number of "middleground" posters, random repeaters, and newbies,
is considerably higher than on our group.
within the relatively short term of my participation, i have watched
with considerable bemusement as the "inner circle", which is comprised of a
rainbow of personalities, met the challenge of a newbie who was determined
to bombard the group with thread hijackings centered around his own very
right-wing political attitudes. the core group, *almost to a man*, without
regard to the variation of their own politics, absolutely smothered the
renegade's efforts to create wholesale dissension. he retired from the fray
after about two or three weeks of fruitless blustering.
i must say that the quality of intellect and literacy displayed over
there doesn't match the best roff has to offer; few places do. but when it
comes to finding a place to go for some pleasant interaction concerning
one's particular choice of escapism, the guitar room is where i find myself,
more and more.
i fear that others, both regulars and those who just stop by for a drink
or two, now and then, will make the same choice, until roff as we knew it
will, as peter charles perceptively notes, becomes extinct.
my reading of tom littleton's post, and my understanding of my own
petulant urgings is not to make this place into a place populated by
stepford wives; no one wants a usenet version of "pleasantville". like most
of life, it's a matter of degree; and while no one can convince me that the
intensely personal vendettas that seem to have grown in number and intensity
over the last few months do not portend dark times, i know enough about some
of the people involved to hold out hope that we can mend the tears in the
fabric, at least for long enough to fish together again, and thereby heal
ourselves and this community.

yfitons
wayno

Wayne Harrison wrote:

my reading of tom littleton's post, and my understanding of my own
petulant urgings is not to make this place into a place populated by
stepford wives; no one wants a usenet version of "pleasantville". like most
of life, it's a matter of degree; and while no one can convince me that the
intensely personal vendettas that seem to have grown in number and intensity
over the last few months do not portend dark times, i know enough about some
of the people involved to hold out hope that we can mend the tears in the
fabric, at least for long enough to fish together again, and thereby heal
ourselves and this community.


In the past, I've made statements similar to yours from time to time
(although probably not as eloquently posed) and I was met with with
statements, from you as well as others, such as "all you want is a group
that discusses fishing - how boring", " if you don't like it don't read
it" etc. Things may be A BIT different right now on ROFF, but if they
are, they aren't much different.

I was puzzled by the recent criticisms you made of ROFF. It thought they
were quite similar to statements I made in the past that you discounted,
but now that you've found a new place to hang, it makes more sense.

Willi

"Wayne Harrison" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. com...
SNIP
of the people involved to hold out hope that we can mend the tears in the
fabric, at least for long enough to fish together again, and thereby heal
ourselves and this community.

yfitons
wayno



Even train wrecks pall eventually.

This is not a community, it is basically a motley collection of widely
differing individuals who happen to come in here for whatever reason.
There may be some community feeling at claves etc, but there is not much
here. This is mainly because many people can not get along with total
freedom of speech. (Within the limitations obtaining here of course).

Wishing others to be friendly and polite is not sufficient, one must also be
friendly and polite.

Without some form of control, chaos invariably eventually reigns. The only
real control here is self-control, and some simply don´t have any. I don´t
see this changing either.

If one discusses off-topic contentious material, then the results are
inevitable, as many disagreements almost immediately deteriorate into
personal battles. Hardly anybody wants to read or become otherwise involved
in such. It is embarrassing and pointless.

As a fishing NG, this place has become almost useless. Just like
governments, you get the newsgroup you deserve. If you want a better one,
then the general behaviour and attitude of the participants has to change. I
don´t think this is likely either.

This group can only become extinct if the level of posting sinks below a
certain level for a certain period of time. This too is unlikely. What is
possible is that more and more of the once prolific posters retire, or at
least post less, this might allow some new blood to assert itself. Whether
that is then "better" is a moot point, and entirely subjective.

As it happens, I agree with your sentiments, and Tom Littleton´s as well,
but others will not do so, and even this will cause contention, as doubtless
even my agreement therewith! Some comments to this effect have already been
made. Unless a common basis is found, and some people practice a little
restraint, things will simply not change.

TL
MC

Peter Charles wrote:

About the only problem I see emerging is the apparent slowdown in the
accretion of new "regulars". The newsreader stats posted by Forty
seems to indicate a reduction in new/return posters and the same old,
same old dominating the charts. The seemingly endless internecine
warfare has to be turn-off for newbies. As I said previously, wayno
calls this place Darwinian and Darwin's theories include extinction.

The whole "Darwinian" business is cute but can only bear so much. Sure,
"survival of the fittest" and all that jazz. Hardly likely, though,
that a newsgroup would become "extinct" in anything like the way a
species does. People come, some stay, some go, some come back, some
stay gone. So, ROFF "mutates", it "evolves", but not in any Darwinian
sense. The size of the "core group" of regulars probably stays around
the same over time, with attrition and "recruitment" more or less equal
(who knows, maybe there's some more or less standard "inner circle" size
for Usenet--the maximum number whose personal histories, likes/dislikes,
etc., other Inner Circlers can comfortably keep in their heads).

And even if ROFF could cease to exist (or if it were to atrophy to
*only* the same 10-20 folks) and the rest of the millions of fly fishers
in the world went and did something else, just how dire would that be,
who would care?

JR

JR wrote:
...
And even if ROFF could cease to exist (or if it were to atrophy to
*only* the same 10-20 folks) and the rest of the millions of fly fishers
in the world went and did something else, just how dire would that be,
who would care?

Well said, JR. Maudlin pleas for comity, camaraderie and "can't we all
get along and sing a round of Kumbaya" are as old as cabin fever itself.
In actual point of fact, no, we cannot all get along, we never have and
we never will. Those who can deal with that, either by staying out of
the fray, ignoring it altogether or participating in it, will stay,
those who cannot will leave. 'Twas ever thus on unmoderated Usenet
newsgroups.

--
Ken Fortenberry