Fly Floatant

George Adams wrote:


Cab-o-Sil. Fumed silica. Available from aircraft and boat supply houses. Got
mine from an outfit called Spruce Aircraft, IIRC.
Cost is about 12 bucks a gallon, which should be a lifetime supply.

As rw said, Albolene is available at nearly all drug stores for about 12 bucks
for a large jar, so for 25 bucks you can outfit yourself with a lifetime supply
of floatants.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

Great info and thanks.

Albolene ? who'd a thunk it. This is great for me and no problem to
get. My wife is a Pharmacy Tech. and even gets a discount, and I don't
even have to get off my butt to get it myself, so...win / win I will
surely give it a try.
Now the Cab-o-Sil is not quite so easy to get but I will give it a try
as well. Found some online for $5.20 for 1 gal. The Cab-o-Sil is a
powder correct? Does it protect againt the water saturating the fly or
does it just dry out the flies fibers (or both)

From: (Goat)

Now the Cab-o-Sil is not quite so easy to get but I will give it a try
as well. Found some online for $5.20 for 1 gal. The Cab-o-Sil is a
powder correct? Does it protect againt the water saturating the fly or
does it just dry out the flies fibers (or both)

There may be more than one type of Cab -o- Sil. (see Larry L's posts on this
thread) The one I purchased was from Spruce Aircraft, and I think it was more
expensive, but I might be including shipping charges. My memory ain't what it
used to was, and I discarded all the info I had long ago.

In my experience, it dries out the fibers, and also acts as a floatant, but
it's main advantage is as a super dessicant that will dry out delicate fibers
like CDC and ostrich herl. The trick is to work it into the fibers completely
with a brush. You may want to consider purchasing one container of FF to get
the supplied brush.

As rw and Dave L mentioned, you may also need a suitable container for the
Albolene. It wouldn't hurt to buy a bottle of Gink and refill it as needed. As
an aside, I was just looking at a Fly Fisherman magazine from the early
seventies that showed Gink being sold in a small wide mouth jar.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

"George Adams" wrote in message
...
From: (Goat)

Now the Cab-o-Sil is not quite so easy to get but I will give it a try
as well. Found some online for $5.20 for 1 gal. The Cab-o-Sil is a
powder correct? Does it protect againt the water saturating the fly or
does it just dry out the flies fibers (or both)

There may be more than one type of Cab -o- Sil. (see Larry L's posts on
this
thread) The one I purchased was from Spruce Aircraft, and I think it was
more
expensive, but I might be including shipping charges. My memory ain't what
it
used to was, and I discarded all the info I had long ago.

In my experience, it dries out the fibers, and also acts as a floatant,
but
it's main advantage is as a super dessicant that will dry out delicate
fibers
like CDC and ostrich herl. The trick is to work it into the fibers
completely
with a brush. You may want to consider purchasing one container of FF to
get
the supplied brush.
...

I just did a little experiment.

I put about half an ounce of water in a glass pinch bowl and then added a
pinch of Frog's Fanny. The FF floated in clumps of various small sizes.
After stirring vigorously for a couple of minutes, all of the FF was still
floating. Twenty minutes later, all of it is still floating.....or, at
least apparently so. None is visible below the surface. Without chemical
analysis, it's impossible to tell whether or not any has dissolved.......but
I don't think it has. What does this mean? Well, it looks like FF is not a
desiccant, at least in the sense that silica gel or clay (two of the most
widely used desiccants) are. Both clay and silica gel work by absorption.
They are both porous and hydrophilic. That is to say, they readily form
loose bonds with water molecules and have a large available surface area
with which to form many such bonds......they hold a LOT of water. Drop
either of them in water and, even if ground exceedingly fine (like FF) and
they will sink because both are heavier than water AND their hydrophilic
character allows them, even in very small pieces, to break the surface
tension......they sink

FF seems to work by aDsorption, as opposed to aBsorption. Adsorption is
purely a surface phenomenon. FF works because water clings to the surface
and then is brushed off with the excess FF. Drop a saturated fly in a
bottle of FF and you will pull out a saturated fly covered in FF.

Bottom line.......Frog's Fanny is not a desiccant.....nor, it seems, exactly
a floatant either. Or, at least not a floatant like most that we are
familiar with. It doesn't appear to absorb water like desiccants. Thus,
anything that is thoroughly coated with it won't absorb either. But it
doesn't cling to fly tying materials like all of the hydrocarbon based
floatant materials we're used to......and thus, it doesn't last long either.

I did another experiment. I don't know what "fumed" silica is, but I DO
know what silica is. Silica is silicon dioxide.....two oxygen atoms bonded
(very tightly) to one silicon atom. Silicon dioxide is THE most common
substance in the Earth's crust (remember OSiAlFeCaNaKMg?)....rock, sand,
quartz. Silicon dioxide won't burn.....burning is combustion, is
oxidation.....the silicon in silicon dioxide is already as oxidized as it's
ever going to get. I put a liberal shake of FF on a piece of paper towel,
and set fire to the paper. The FF survived, unscathed. Whatever this stuff
is, one simple test confirms that it COULD be silica.

Is there a mineralogist in the house?

Wolfgang
ain't science fun?

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:51:13 -0500, "Wolfgang" wrote:



Is there a mineralogist in the house?

No, but there IS guy whose family owns a silica mine...hydrophobic
(often treated with silicone oil - like copier oil) fumed silica should
have the properties of FF. The untreated variety should not as it is
hydrophilic. I can't remember where I heard it, but I do remember
hearing that FF is the treated stuff as is used in certain toner
formulations. FWIW, "Cab-O-Sil" isn't a specific product, it is a line
name, with various formulations in the line.

HTH,
R


Wolfgang
ain't science fun?

wrote in message . ..

No, but there IS guy whose family owns a silica mine...hydrophobic
(often treated with silicone oil - like copier oil) fumed silica should
have the properties of FF. The untreated variety should not as it is
hydrophilic. I can't remember where I heard it, but I do remember
hearing that FF is the treated stuff as is used in certain toner
formulations. FWIW, "Cab-O-Sil" isn't a specific product, it is a line
name, with various formulations in the line.

I am wondering if cab-o-sil is the same as "colloidal silica". The
reason I mention it is because you used to be able to get a sampler
pack from West System epoxy that included "colloidal silica" as a
filler. IIRC, you simply paid shipping costs for the pack. (Or
shipping costs plus a nominal fee.) I don't know if they still offer
that or not.

Anyhow, if this stuff is the same, I'd guess that you could order
some from them for a decent price.


Chuck Vance (who'll have to dig around in his shop to see where
he put that sampler pack)

(Conan The Librarian) wrote in
om:

wrote in message
. ..

No, but there IS guy whose family owns a silica mine...hydrophobic
(often treated with silicone oil - like copier oil) fumed silica
should have the properties of FF. The untreated variety should not
as it is hydrophilic. I can't remember where I heard it, but I do
remember hearing that FF is the treated stuff as is used in certain
toner formulations. FWIW, "Cab-O-Sil" isn't a specific product, it
is a line name, with various formulations in the line.

I am wondering if cab-o-sil is the same as "colloidal silica". The
reason I mention it is because you used to be able to get a sampler
pack from West System epoxy that included "colloidal silica" as a
filler. IIRC, you simply paid shipping costs for the pack. (Or
shipping costs plus a nominal fee.) I don't know if they still offer
that or not.

Anyhow, if this stuff is the same, I'd guess that you could order
some from them for a decent price.


Chuck Vance (who'll have to dig around in his shop to see where
he put that sampler pack)


FWIW I experienced the same result Larry L described earlier. I only mention it here
because I was testing West System 406 Colloidal Silica which Chuck mentions. I don't
know anything about Frog's Fanny but assume the Top Ride I use is the same sort of
thing. I added a teaspoon or so of the 406 to the Top Ride container and tried it out.
I am certain it is not the right stuff. Although it dried the fly well enough it
seemed to make it sink rather than float especially if I had applied paste floatant to
the fly earlier. In that case the silica clumped onto the fly and dragged it down
instantly. Perhaps there are different formulations of colloidal silica as RDean
suggested but based on my experience West 406 Colloidal is NOT the right kind.

Back to the fly shop to replace the Top (now Bottom!) Ride.

Jeff

From: Jeff Marso

FWIW I experienced the same result Larry L described earlier. I only mention
it here
because I was testing West System 406 Colloidal Silica which Chuck mentions.
I don't
know anything about Frog's Fanny but assume the Top Ride I use is the same
sort of
thing.

I added a teaspoon or so of the 406 to the Top Ride container and tried it
out.
I am certain it is not the right stuff. Although it dried the fly well enough
it
seemed to make it sink rather than float especially if I had applied paste
floatant to
the fly earlier.

In that case the silica clumped onto the fly and dragged it down
instantly. Perhaps there are different formulations of colloidal silica as
RDean
suggested but based on my experience West 406 Colloidal is NOT the right
kind.

According to what I got from the Cabot website, I would say you want untreated
fumed silica. (Cab-O-Sil M-5, I think) This would be the stuff added to paint
and epoxy to help keep it from running down vertical surfaces. The treated
stuff used in toner is quite different.

The stuff I got from Aircraft Spruce may not be identical to FF, but it works
quite well for me.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

From: Jeff Marso

FWIW I experienced the same result Larry L described earlier. I only mention
it here
because I was testing West System 406 Colloidal Silica which Chuck mentions.
I don't
know anything about Frog's Fanny but assume the Top Ride I use is the same
sort of
thing.

I added a teaspoon or so of the 406 to the Top Ride container and tried it
out.
I am certain it is not the right stuff. Although it dried the fly well enough
it
seemed to make it sink rather than float especially if I had applied paste
floatant to
the fly earlier.

In that case the silica clumped onto the fly and dragged it down
instantly. Perhaps there are different formulations of colloidal silica as
RDean
suggested but based on my experience West 406 Colloidal is NOT the right
kind.

According to what I got from the Cabot website, I would say you want untreated
fumed silica. (Cab-O-Sil M-5, I think) This would be the stuff added to paint
and epoxy to help keep it from running down vertical surfaces. The treated
stuff used in toner is quite different.

The stuff I got from Aircraft Spruce may not be identical to FF, but it works
quite well for me.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller